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Thread: Vernal, UT police trample the 4th Amendment

  1. #1
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Vernal, UT police trample the 4th Amendment

    And they say it's a common practice in this situation.
    This poor man had just watched his wife die. When the mortician arrived to pick up the body (10 minutes later) the police came with.
    No note of how they knew the woman had died, or how they knew she had pain medicines. (She was in hospice at home.)
    No warrant, no RAS of a crime, definitely no consent, they just barged in & demanded to search for & confiscate the woman's pain medicines.

    city manager Ken Bassett dismissed [the widower's] concerns, saying he was "overly sensitive" and that police were just trying to protect the public from illegal use of prescription drugs
    Last edited by MKEgal; 02-23-2013 at 03:34 PM.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    [the widower] asked Vernal city officials and police administrators why officers would search his home without a warrant. He said he was told the Utah Controlled Substances Act provides authority for the search.
    Here's their CSA
    http://www.dopl.utah.gov/laws/58-37.pdf
    The definitions of possession & "ultimate user" fit the situation, but nothing else in that law applies because:

    58-37-8 Prohibited Acts - Penalties
    (2) Prohibited acts B - Penalties:
    (a) It is unlawful:
    (i) for any person knowingly and intentionally to possess or use ... a controlled substance, unless it was obtained under a valid prescription...
    (No, it says nothing about "a valid prescription to the possessor or his/her family member". Odd omission.)

    This only applies to manufacturers. (Not sure if it'd include a pharmacy.)
    58-37-10. Search warrants - Administrative inspection warrants - Inspections and seizures of property without warrant.
    (3) The department is authorized to make administrative inspections of controlled premises in accord ance with the following provisions:
    (a) For purposes of this section only, "controlled premises" means:
    (i) Places where persons licensed or exempted from licensing requirements under this act are required to keep records

    (b) When authorized by an administrative inspection warrant a law enforcement officer ... upon presenting the warrant and appropriate credentials to the owner, operator, or agent in charge, has the right to enter controlled premises for the purpose of conducting an administrative inspection.

    (c) When authorized by an administrative inspection warrant, a law enforcement officer or employee designated in Section 58-37-9 has the right...

    (ii) To inspect within reasonable limits and a reasonable manner, the controlled premises and all ... things ...
    (iii) To inventory and stock of any controlled substance and obtain samples of any substance.

    58-37-13 Property subject to forfeiture - Seizure - Procedure
    (3) Property subject to forfeiture under this chapter may be seized by any peace officer of this state upon process issued by any court having jurisdiction over the property. However, seizure without process may be made when:

    (a) the seizure is incident to an arrest or search under a search warrant or an inspection under an administrative inspection warrant;
    ...
    (c) the peace officer has probable cause to believe that the property is directly or indirectly dangerous to health or safety
    That's the only possible wiggle room I see, though how lawfully-obtained medicine fits I can't imagine.
    Are the police really going to try to claim that this elderly veteran was going to turn into an illegal drug dealer?



    Last edited by MKEgal; 02-23-2013 at 03:31 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    That's the only possible wiggle room I see, though how lawfully-obtained medicine fits I can't imagine.
    Are the police really going to try to claim that this elderly veteran was going to turn into an illegal drug dealer?



    Law or not, I would have kicked their butts out just for showing no decency or respect.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Patriot
    The nurse got up and went into the fridge and took all the medications
    So she committed theft,
    as well as possessing drugs not prescribed to her (or a member of her family).
    Probably a misdemeanor & a felony.

    Without seeing an article like this, or reading about what happened with your grandma, I would never have thought this was a problem.
    Knowing now that it is, if someone is concerned about a similarly overbearing 'public servant' or employee of a hospice, maybe have a medicine bottle or three at the bedside, original labels, but empty of medicine. "The bottles are by her bed." Perfectly true.
    Or just tell them it's none of their buisness, go take a flying leap, & get out of my house. We, the family, will take care of her property.

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    Regular Member darkin's Avatar
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    Vernal, UT police trample the 4th Amendment

    In VA any death is considered a crime scene until it has been investigated. If you call 911 and ask for EMS, for a call that involves a serious injury or death, the police are automatically dispatched.
    This situation seem like the police went way overboard.
    Last edited by darkin; 02-23-2013 at 05:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Law or not, I would have kicked their butts out just for showing no decency or respect.
    You keep saying you'd do these rash things. You keep encouraging others to do so. Yet, not once have you ever related one single instance of your having stood up in one of the stupid ways you advocate.

    All I see is bluster, sound and fury signifying nothing.

    We have a lot of folks on this site who have actually risked life and Liberty for the Right. Folks who talk a lot, but do nothing look pretty childish next to real action.

    Note that I am not saying you should do any of the stupid stuff you advocate, just that you might just want to shut up for a while and listen to folks who have actually taken intelligent risks for the cause.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkin
    In VA any death is considered a crime scene until it has been investigated. If you call 911 and ask for EMS, for a call that involves a serious injury or death, the police are automatically dispatched.
    Except that this woman was in hospice care because of cancer, and as far as I can tell from the article the family friend (or maybe the husband) only called the hospice & either the hospice or family friend called the undertaker for transport.

    It says nothing about how the police came to know about the death, or the woman's medications.
    Maybe the hospice has to call police, or chose to, and the police reasoned that someone in hospice would have useful pain drugs?
    The problem is the policy.
    Whoever set up the policy should be fired & named as a major player in that lawsuit.
    Surely the undertaker knew this woman was in hospice, under a doctor's care, expected to die, so there's no reason to suspect foul play. Ditto for the hospice.
    And if the police got a call saying "just FYI, one of our hospice patients died", I think the proper response should be something like "glad she's not in pain any more. Let us know the time & who was present so we can write a report".

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    Definitely scary stuff.

    I think it's interesting to compare state laws, also. KRS 72.025 defines 19 circumstances which must involve a coroner, and at least as per my reading in all other circumstances law enforcement does not need to be involved in the death. The coroner is a peace officer in Kentucky(KRS 72.415), and the coroner has the full and ultimate legal authority of scenes involving a death as defined in 72.025.

    Here are the required circumstances in Kentucky
    (1) When the death of a human being appears to be caused by homicide or violence;
    (2) When the death of a human being appears to be the result of suicide;
    (3) When the death of a human being appears to be the result of the presence of drugs or poisons in the body;
    (4) When the death of a human being appears to be the result of a motor vehicle accident and the operator of the motor vehicle left the scene of the accident or the body was found in or near a roadway or railroad;
    (5) When the death of a human being occurs while the person is in a state mental institution or mental hospital when there is no previous medical history to explain the death, or while the person is in police custody, a jail or penal institution;
    (6) When the death of a human being occurs in a motor vehicle accident and when an external examination of the body does not reveal a lethal traumatic injury;
    (7) When the death of a human being appears to be the result of a fire or explosion;
    (8) When the death of a child appears to indicate child abuse prior to the death;
    (9) When the manner of death appears to be other than natural;
    (10) When human skeletonized remains are found;
    (11) When post-mortem decomposition of a human corpse exists to the extent that external examination of the corpse cannot rule out injury or where the circumstances of death cannot rule out the commission of a crime;
    (12) When the death of a human being appears to be the result of drowning;
    (13) When the death of an infant appears to be caused by sudden infant death syndrome in that the infant has no previous medical history to explain the death;
    (14) When the death of a human being occurs as a result of an accident;
    (15) Whenthedeathofahumanbeingoccursundertheageofforty( 40)andthereisno past medical history to explain the death;
    (16) When the death of a human being occurs at the work site and there is no apparent cause of death such as an injury or when industrial toxics may have contributed to the cause of death;
    (17) Whenthebodyistobecrematedandthereisnopastmedicalhi storytoexplainthe death;
    (18) When the death of a human being is sudden and unexplained; and
    (19) When the death of a human being occurs and the decedent is not receiving treatment by a licensed physician and there is no ascertainable medical history to indicate the cause of death.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Law or not, I would have kicked their butts out just for showing no decency or respect.
    Advocating breaking the law by altercation with a police officer is against forum tos. You need to learn that particular time is not your time to fight, your time to fight is in court. Any other time is just asking for physical violence against people

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    You keep saying you'd do these rash things. You keep encouraging others to do so. Yet, not once have you ever related one single instance of your having stood up in one of the stupid ways you advocate.

    All I see is bluster, sound and fury signifying nothing.

    We have a lot of folks on this site who have actually risked life and Liberty for the Right. Folks who talk a lot, but do nothing look pretty childish next to real action.

    Note that I am not saying you should do any of the stupid stuff you advocate, just that you might just want to shut up for a while and listen to folks who have actually taken intelligent risks for the cause.

    OK Copernicus ... we believe everything you say .. you are always right ... are you feeling better now? Breath slowly...

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    Quote Originally Posted by moriar View Post
    Advocating breaking the law by altercation with a police officer is against forum tos. You need to learn that particular time is not your time to fight, your time to fight is in court. Any other time is just asking for physical violence against people
    +1

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moriar View Post
    Advocating breaking the law by altercation with a police officer is against forum tos. You need to learn that particular time is not your time to fight, your time to fight is in court. Any other time is just asking for physical violence against people
    One can "kick their butts out" without resorting to any physical contact. The reader is obligated to ask questions to determine meaning. Alleging a rules violation could be construed as a rules violation. I tend to leave rules violations determinations to the staff and owners of OCDO.

    (15) WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts.
    Just sayin.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
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    Vernal, UT police trample the 4th Amendment

    Based on his posting history and the "legal" advice" he has posted in the past, barring a specific denial, the most reasonable conclusion is that he is being literal. Based on other facets of his track record, I wouldn't be predisposed to believe any denial.

    I don't expect, but we should get, a denial.


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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Dumb question: Under the circumstances outlined by OP, and circumstances related by others in this thread, is there any obligation to admit any law enforcement officers to the home without the presence of a warrant? For that matter, is there any obligation to allow a nurse to confiscate pain medications in an in-home setting?

    The latter case sets off alarm bells with me as my late wife was an RN and she knew several nurses who were addicts and lost their licenses over just such antics.

    I also realize that this may vary by state.
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    Vernal, UT police trample the 4th Amendment

    They do not have to have a warrant if there are exigent circumstances. They don't have to ask either. However, they will have to justify their actions afterward.


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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    One can "kick their butts out" without resorting to any physical contact. The reader is obligated to ask questions to determine meaning. Alleging a rules violation could be construed as a rules violation. I tend to leave rules violations determinations to the staff and owners of OCDO.

    Just sayin.

    While you are correct, that we do not know the true meaning of his post. If you legally "kick their butts out" you are a little more tactful with your wording and methodology and would not use the term "Kicking their butts out" and would use a term of "Rejecting entry to property with legal notification and paperwork". Using the term "kick their butts out" immediately shows physical altercation would be immediately dispensed upon entry into the property.

    But when you have 6-7 cops at your door and they say they want into your place... guess what they are coming in whether you like it or not. Do you think you will talk them out of your house? No you will not. Do you think you can physically refrain the police from entering your house? No, its a case of futility and you will end up dead. Its incredibly unbecoming to see postings of "Resist" on a public forum that is accessible by any and anyone.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    They do not have to have a warrant if there are exigent circumstances. They don't have to ask either. However, they will have to justify their actions afterward.


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    Out of curiosity what exigent circumstance would there be for a family member passing away, from natural causes?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by moriar View Post
    While you are correct, that we do not know the true meaning of his post. If you legally "kick their butts out" you are a little more tactful with your wording and methodology and would not use the term "Kicking their butts out" and would use a term of "Rejecting entry to property with legal notification and paperwork". Using the term "kick their butts out" immediately shows physical altercation would be immediately dispensed upon entry into the property.

    But when you have 6-7 cops at your door and they say they want into your place... guess what they are coming in whether you like it or not. Do you think you will talk them out of your house? No you will not. Do you think you can physically refrain the police from entering your house? No, its a case of futility and you will end up dead. Its incredibly unbecoming to see postings of "Resist" on a public forum that is accessible by any and anyone.
    Yes You Can!!!

    Ask MKE Gal.... She DID.. stop many cops from entering her house . for some time!

    I!!!! Would stop some Cops from entering my house.... EVER!!!!

    I am 60, I am ready, I am able, I WILL stand MY ground!!!!

    I know many, that are younger, that have more to lose, that will do the same..
    I call them ... Patriots!
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Law or not, I would have kicked their butts out just for showing no decency or respect.
    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    You keep saying you'd do these rash things. You keep encouraging others to do so. Yet, not once have you ever related one single instance of your having stood up in one of the stupid ways you advocate.

    All I see is bluster, sound and fury signifying nothing.

    We have a lot of folks on this site who have actually risked life and Liberty for the Right. Folks who talk a lot, but do nothing look pretty childish next to real action.

    Note that I am not saying you should do any of the stupid stuff you advocate, just that you might just want to shut up for a while and listen to folks who have actually taken intelligent risks for the cause.
    David McBeth serves a valuable purpose on these forums, mostly as an example of the utmost wrong-headed and stupid thing to do. I can only surmise that it has to be an act, as he can't possibly be that obtuse.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Based on his posting history and the "legal" advice" he has posted in the past, barring a specific denial, the most reasonable conclusion is that he is being literal. Based on other facets of his track record, I wouldn't be predisposed to believe any denial.

    I don't expect, but we should get, a denial.

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    Irrefutable fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by moriar View Post
    While you are correct, that we do not know the true meaning of his post. <snip>
    See eye95's post above. I do not disagree with any of the remainder of your post. Well stated Sir.

    Reasonable citizens must be sure that reasonable conclusions are drawn by the newer members of OCDO. I used to fly off half-cocked because I knew what I meant and had the attitude that you should have known what I meant. I am some what more mature in this regard. I am not as mature as I need to be in other areas.....if my wife is correct that is. And would not argue that she is incorrect.....cuz she can read these very words too.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    Yes You Can!!!

    Ask MKE Gal.... She DID.. stop many cops from entering her house . for some time!

    I!!!! Would stop some Cops from entering my house.... EVER!!!!

    I am 60, I am ready, I am able, I WILL stand MY ground!!!!

    I know many, that are younger, that have more to lose, that will do the same..
    I call them ... Patriots!
    I wholeheartedly agree that you should defend your home from illegal entry, but when the Police can use a laundry list of exigent reasoning to gain entry, aka "We believe that there are Controlled Substances that are not in the owners name" guess what, They have just gained legal entry into your home. Your only recourse at that time is to just sit down on the porch while they rile through your belongings and you wait till your Court Date, and once that day arrives you then say in Court that XYZ were not a legal entry and that any and all charges should be dropped due to you were not illegally selling the narcotics and that you were still grieving and were planning on safe disposal of the medication.

    Now a days you cannot physically resist a police entry, You will end up dead and then branded XYZ and placed on television. Which then adds fuel to the Anti-Gun people as saying "These "Patriots" shoot at innocent cops we need to take the guns away completely".

  22. #22
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    You keep saying you'd do these rash things. You keep encouraging others to do so. Yet, not once have you ever related one single instance of your having stood up in one of the stupid ways you advocate.

    All I see is bluster, sound and fury signifying nothing.

    We have a lot of folks on this site who have actually risked life and Liberty for the Right. Folks who talk a lot, but do nothing look pretty childish next to real action.

    Note that I am not saying you should do any of the stupid stuff you advocate, just that you might just want to shut up for a while and listen to folks who have actually taken intelligent risks for the cause.
    He did once say he was selling pistols to residents of Chicago, but his recent posts he is implying he lives in CT. So I would just consider him a felon who hasn't been caught yet (or maybe he has, some of the nicer federal pens allow Internet access) but needless to say, newbies and lurkers, davidmacbeth is not your friend. Do not follow any advice he gives you....
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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  23. #23
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Patriot
    The exception is if the patient is under the care of a physician.
    Hospice care always involves a physician.
    ...
    There should really be no police involved for the death of hospice patients.
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender
    Yes You Can!!!
    Ask MKE Gal.... She DID.. stop many cops from entering her house for some time!
    I'd forgotten I sent you that YouTube link...
    And yes, while I did delay their entry for a while, they did eventually break open my door, tackle & handcuff me, and search the house.
    The civil rights case is still in federal court.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Out of curiosity what exigent circumstance would there be for a family member passing away, from natural causes?
    I don't know. I was just rebutting the general notion that warrants are always required. They aren't always.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I don't know. I was just rebutting the general notion that warrants are always required. They aren't always.
    Ok, thank you for the clarification.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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