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Vernal, UT police trample the 4th Amendment

MKEgal

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And they say it's a common practice in this situation. :mad:
This poor man had just watched his wife die. When the mortician arrived to pick up the body (10 minutes later) the police came with.
No note of how they knew the woman had died, or how they knew she had pain medicines. (She was in hospice at home.)
No warrant, no RAS of a crime, definitely no consent, they just barged in & demanded to search for & confiscate the woman's pain medicines.

city manager Ken Bassett dismissed [the widower's] concerns, saying he was "overly sensitive" and that police were just trying to protect the public from illegal use of prescription drugs
 
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MKEgal

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[the widower] asked Vernal city officials and police administrators why officers would search his home without a warrant. He said he was told the Utah Controlled Substances Act provides authority for the search.
Here's their CSA
http://www.dopl.utah.gov/laws/58-37.pdf
The definitions of possession & "ultimate user" fit the situation, but nothing else in that law applies because:

58-37-8 Prohibited Acts - Penalties
(2) Prohibited acts B - Penalties:
(a) It is unlawful:
(i) for any person knowingly and intentionally to possess or use ... a controlled substance, unless it was obtained under a valid prescription...
(No, it says nothing about "a valid prescription to the possessor or his/her family member". Odd omission.)

This only applies to manufacturers. (Not sure if it'd include a pharmacy.)
58-37-10. Search warrants - Administrative inspection warrants - Inspections and seizures of property without warrant.
(3) The department is authorized to make administrative inspections of controlled premises in accord ance with the following provisions:
(a) For purposes of this section only, "controlled premises" means:
(i) Places where persons licensed or exempted from licensing requirements under this act are required to keep records

(b) When authorized by an administrative inspection warrant a law enforcement officer ... upon presenting the warrant and appropriate credentials to the owner, operator, or agent in charge, has the right to enter controlled premises for the purpose of conducting an administrative inspection.

(c) When authorized by an administrative inspection warrant, a law enforcement officer or employee designated in Section 58-37-9 has the right...

(ii) To inspect within reasonable limits and a reasonable manner, the controlled premises and all ... things ...
(iii) To inventory and stock of any controlled substance and obtain samples of any substance.

58-37-13 Property subject to forfeiture - Seizure - Procedure
(3) Property subject to forfeiture under this chapter may be seized by any peace officer of this state upon process issued by any court having jurisdiction over the property. However, seizure without process may be made when:

(a) the seizure is incident to an arrest or search under a search warrant or an inspection under an administrative inspection warrant;
...
(c) the peace officer has probable cause to believe that the property is directly or indirectly dangerous to health or safety
That's the only possible wiggle room I see, though how lawfully-obtained medicine fits I can't imagine.
Are the police really going to try to claim that this elderly veteran was going to turn into an illegal drug dealer?



 
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davidmcbeth

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That's the only possible wiggle room I see, though how lawfully-obtained medicine fits I can't imagine.
Are the police really going to try to claim that this elderly veteran was going to turn into an illegal drug dealer?




Law or not, I would have kicked their butts out just for showing no decency or respect.
 

Ca Patriot

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I experienced something similiar with a family member who was in hospice care.

When they passed away the first person to show up was the nurse who legally can certify death and since you are "under doctors care" while in hospice then no police or coroner need to show up.

After the nurse certified that the family member was deceased she asked the other family members where the pain medications were kept. One of my family members saidin the refrigirator. The nurse got up and went into the fridge and took all the medications from there. One of my family got pissed. She then asked if there were anymore in the house and we all said no.

I dont think the nurse had any right to take the drugs but we were all mourning the death and not even thinking about it.

In the future, for anyone reading this, MAKE SURE to have these arraignement made PRIOR to death because if not then you will have police all over your house if someone dies.

My grandmother was 102 yrs old when she died but she didnt believe in doctors and never had one. When the coroner showed up to take her away from home they asked who her doctor was and my family said "she didnt have one". The coroner said "everyone has a doctor, this is suspicious" and they called the police. 5 cop cars and 7 police show up to the house and start questioning everyone like its a murder scene. How fricken "unusual" is it for a 102 yr old women to pass away at her home ?
 

MKEgal

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Ca Patriot said:
The nurse got up and went into the fridge and took all the medications
So she committed theft,
as well as possessing drugs not prescribed to her (or a member of her family).
Probably a misdemeanor & a felony.

Without seeing an article like this, or reading about what happened with your grandma, I would never have thought this was a problem.
Knowing now that it is, if someone is concerned about a similarly overbearing 'public servant' or employee of a hospice, maybe have a medicine bottle or three at the bedside, original labels, but empty of medicine. "The bottles are by her bed." Perfectly true.
Or just tell them it's none of their buisness, go take a flying leap, & get out of my house. We, the family, will take care of her property. :mad:
 

darkin

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In VA any death is considered a crime scene until it has been investigated. If you call 911 and ask for EMS, for a call that involves a serious injury or death, the police are automatically dispatched.
This situation seem like the police went way overboard.
 
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eye95

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Law or not, I would have kicked their butts out just for showing no decency or respect.

You keep saying you'd do these rash things. You keep encouraging others to do so. Yet, not once have you ever related one single instance of your having stood up in one of the stupid ways you advocate.

All I see is bluster, sound and fury signifying nothing.

We have a lot of folks on this site who have actually risked life and Liberty for the Right. Folks who talk a lot, but do nothing look pretty childish next to real action.

Note that I am not saying you should do any of the stupid stuff you advocate, just that you might just want to shut up for a while and listen to folks who have actually taken intelligent risks for the cause.
 

MKEgal

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darkin said:
In VA any death is considered a crime scene until it has been investigated. If you call 911 and ask for EMS, for a call that involves a serious injury or death, the police are automatically dispatched.
Except that this woman was in hospice care because of cancer, and as far as I can tell from the article the family friend (or maybe the husband) only called the hospice & either the hospice or family friend called the undertaker for transport.

It says nothing about how the police came to know about the death, or the woman's medications.
Maybe the hospice has to call police, or chose to, and the police reasoned that someone in hospice would have useful pain drugs?
The problem is the policy.
Whoever set up the policy should be fired & named as a major player in that lawsuit.
Surely the undertaker knew this woman was in hospice, under a doctor's care, expected to die, so there's no reason to suspect foul play. Ditto for the hospice.
And if the police got a call saying "just FYI, one of our hospice patients died", I think the proper response should be something like "glad she's not in pain any more. Let us know the time & who was present so we can write a report".
 

Ca Patriot

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In VA any death is considered a crime scene until it has been investigated. .


The exception is if the patient is under the care of a physician. Hospice care always involves a physician. Family members are given clear instructions by hospice that upon death to notify the hospice and they send a nurse or doctor specifically to avoid the hassle of coroners and police.

Remember that a patient can only get into/under hospice care if a doctor has determined the patient has less than 3-6 months to live. The majority are terminal cancer patients who average about 1-2 months.

There should really be no police involved for the death of hospice patients.
 
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bunnspecial

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Definitely scary stuff.

I think it's interesting to compare state laws, also. KRS 72.025 defines 19 circumstances which must involve a coroner, and at least as per my reading in all other circumstances law enforcement does not need to be involved in the death. The coroner is a peace officer in Kentucky(KRS 72.415), and the coroner has the full and ultimate legal authority of scenes involving a death as defined in 72.025.

Here are the required circumstances in Kentucky
(1) When the death of a human being appears to be caused by homicide or violence;
(2) When the death of a human being appears to be the result of suicide;
(3) When the death of a human being appears to be the result of the presence of drugs or poisons in the body;
(4) When the death of a human being appears to be the result of a motor vehicle accident and the operator of the motor vehicle left the scene of the accident or the body was found in or near a roadway or railroad;
(5) When the death of a human being occurs while the person is in a state mental institution or mental hospital when there is no previous medical history to explain the death, or while the person is in police custody, a jail or penal institution;
(6) When the death of a human being occurs in a motor vehicle accident and when an external examination of the body does not reveal a lethal traumatic injury;
(7) When the death of a human being appears to be the result of a fire or explosion;
(8) When the death of a child appears to indicate child abuse prior to the death;
(9) When the manner of death appears to be other than natural;
(10) When human skeletonized remains are found;
(11) When post-mortem decomposition of a human corpse exists to the extent that external examination of the corpse cannot rule out injury or where the circumstances of death cannot rule out the commission of a crime;
(12) When the death of a human being appears to be the result of drowning;
(13) When the death of an infant appears to be caused by sudden infant death syndrome in that the infant has no previous medical history to explain the death;
(14) When the death of a human being occurs as a result of an accident;
(15) Whenthedeathofahumanbeingoccursundertheageofforty(40)andthereisno past medical history to explain the death;
(16) When the death of a human being occurs at the work site and there is no apparent cause of death such as an injury or when industrial toxics may have contributed to the cause of death;
(17) Whenthebodyistobecrematedandthereisnopastmedicalhistorytoexplainthe death;
(18) When the death of a human being is sudden and unexplained; and
(19) When the death of a human being occurs and the decedent is not receiving treatment by a licensed physician and there is no ascertainable medical history to indicate the cause of death.
 

moriar

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Law or not, I would have kicked their butts out just for showing no decency or respect.

Advocating breaking the law by altercation with a police officer is against forum tos. You need to learn that particular time is not your time to fight, your time to fight is in court. Any other time is just asking for physical violence against people
 

davidmcbeth

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You keep saying you'd do these rash things. You keep encouraging others to do so. Yet, not once have you ever related one single instance of your having stood up in one of the stupid ways you advocate.

All I see is bluster, sound and fury signifying nothing.

We have a lot of folks on this site who have actually risked life and Liberty for the Right. Folks who talk a lot, but do nothing look pretty childish next to real action.

Note that I am not saying you should do any of the stupid stuff you advocate, just that you might just want to shut up for a while and listen to folks who have actually taken intelligent risks for the cause.


OK Copernicus ... we believe everything you say .. you are always right ... are you feeling better now? Breath slowly...
 

eye95

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Advocating breaking the law by altercation with a police officer is against forum tos. You need to learn that particular time is not your time to fight, your time to fight is in court. Any other time is just asking for physical violence against people

+1
 

OC for ME

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Advocating breaking the law by altercation with a police officer is against forum tos. You need to learn that particular time is not your time to fight, your time to fight is in court. Any other time is just asking for physical violence against people
One can "kick their butts out" without resorting to any physical contact. The reader is obligated to ask questions to determine meaning. Alleging a rules violation could be construed as a rules violation. I tend to leave rules violations determinations to the staff and owners of OCDO.

(15) WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts.
Just sayin.
 

eye95

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Based on his posting history and the "legal" advice" he has posted in the past, barring a specific denial, the most reasonable conclusion is that he is being literal. Based on other facets of his track record, I wouldn't be predisposed to believe any denial.

I don't expect, but we should get, a denial.


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SFCRetired

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Dumb question: Under the circumstances outlined by OP, and circumstances related by others in this thread, is there any obligation to admit any law enforcement officers to the home without the presence of a warrant? For that matter, is there any obligation to allow a nurse to confiscate pain medications in an in-home setting?

The latter case sets off alarm bells with me as my late wife was an RN and she knew several nurses who were addicts and lost their licenses over just such antics.

I also realize that this may vary by state.
 

eye95

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They do not have to have a warrant if there are exigent circumstances. They don't have to ask either. However, they will have to justify their actions afterward.


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moriar

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One can "kick their butts out" without resorting to any physical contact. The reader is obligated to ask questions to determine meaning. Alleging a rules violation could be construed as a rules violation. I tend to leave rules violations determinations to the staff and owners of OCDO.

Just sayin.


While you are correct, that we do not know the true meaning of his post. If you legally "kick their butts out" you are a little more tactful with your wording and methodology and would not use the term "Kicking their butts out" and would use a term of "Rejecting entry to property with legal notification and paperwork". Using the term "kick their butts out" immediately shows physical altercation would be immediately dispensed upon entry into the property.

But when you have 6-7 cops at your door and they say they want into your place... guess what they are coming in whether you like it or not. Do you think you will talk them out of your house? No you will not. Do you think you can physically refrain the police from entering your house? No, its a case of futility and you will end up dead. Its incredibly unbecoming to see postings of "Resist" on a public forum that is accessible by any and anyone.
 

sudden valley gunner

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They do not have to have a warrant if there are exigent circumstances. They don't have to ask either. However, they will have to justify their actions afterward.


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Out of curiosity what exigent circumstance would there be for a family member passing away, from natural causes?
 
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