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Thread: Hi I'm looking to write a paper on Open Carry, please watch this video.

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    Post Hi I'm looking to write a paper on Open Carry, please watch this video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1UkfirtoDQ

    A few questions for you supporters of open carry:

    1. How do you think the person being stopped for open carry handled the situation?

    2. How do you think the police stopping this individual for open carry handled the situation?

    3. What do you think of the narrative summation at the beginning of the video (might want to rewind, pause and read it)?

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    1. He talked too much and was annoying. Too much arguing the law with the officers. He should have just told them that he did not consent to any searches or seizures, kept asking if he was free to go, and kept recording. He wasn't ever going to convince the officers, and his behavior is not going to win any folks over to the cause that weren't already on his side. He'll get a lot of rah-rahs from folks who already agree with him, but that does not help.

    2. The only law-breaking going on was on the part of the officers.

    3. Not necessary. The video speaks for itself.

    One more thing, refusing to identify oneself is dangerous. In this case, it was probably OK because the officers specifically stated that he was stopped only because folks called in and reported the man with a gun, which we all know does not constitute RAS.

    However, let me run this scenario by you: An officer stops you while you are OCing and clearly not doing anything along with it that would constitute RAS. He asks you to identify yourself as most State laws would allow him to do if he has RAS and stopping you for investigation of the crime for which he has RAS. You do not provide identification because you are sure he does not have that RAS, because you are doing nothing to provide that RAS. He asks again. You ask why your are being detained. You ask what RAS he has. You ask if you are free to go. He answers none of these questions. He just continues to ask for ID. You continue to refuse.

    Eventually, he asks you to turn around and put your hands behind your back. He cuffs you and informs you that you are under arrest for obstruction (or whatever the crime is for failing to identify yourself is in your State). You smugly think that you are building up a nice lawsuit.

    In court, your lawyer argues that the officer did not have RAS because the mere act of lawful carry cannot, in and of itself, be RAS. The prosecution argues that the officer had RAS because a citizen called in saying that, not only were you carrying, but that you shouted threats and repeatedly handled your firearm (lies, of course). Your lawyer argues that those statements weren't true, so RAS did not exist.

    I guarantee that the judge will find that RAS existed, that you were lawfully detained, that you were required to provide, that you failed to do so when required by law, and were therefore guilty of ____________. He will tell you that the officer did not have to articulate his RAS to you, that he only had to be able to articulate his reasonable suspicion.

    The point is that, unless the officer is stupid enough to tell you that the only reason he stopped you is that you were legally carrying, you don't know whether he has RAS!!!

    Ask if you are free to go. If the officer does not answer, start to leave, but be prepared to stop instantly. If he says yes, leave post haste. If he says no, you are detained, possibly illegally, but you do not know. Follow all the laws as though you were lawfully detained. Fix an illegal detention after the fact.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    You wanna be a hero and argue the law? Become a lawyer and do it in court.

    "Am I being detained?"

    later, "Am I free to go?"

    If asked for ID, say "<name>, I live in X city/county (unless your state law requires you to give a street address). Some folks disagree and recommend giving the satreet address up front. OK with me. YMMV.

    Followed by "Please state your name and badge number." If you get some BS about reading his name plate & badge, tell him you are illiterate.

    Want to touch my handgun? "I would prefer to take my belt off and have you take it while it remains in the holster." Then do whatever the cop says.

    As for your question #3 - What ay to turn both sides, plus the undecided, against you and prove you are one of those loons that goes around looking to create a connfrontation with cops.

    Now, how are my answers going to help you write this paper? Will it be for or against OC?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Regular Member mtbinva's Avatar
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    1. How do you think the person being stopped for open carry handled the situation?

    While he was right, he talked WAY to much.

    2. How do you think the police stopping this individual for open carry handled the situation?

    Very poorly. Ignorance of the law is not a defense, works both ways. The LEO's were breaking the law.

    3. What do you think of the narrative summation at the beginning of the video (might want to rewind, pause and read it)?

    While correct, and the point being made, comes off confrontational.
    Chance favors only the prepared mind.

    Louis Pasteur


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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Welcome to OCDO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnonut
    A few questions for you supporters of open carry
    Just to be friendly, how about you introduce yourself, explain the background of your request, the purpose of the paper, etc.

    I remember one person in a similar situation who said he was in high school, first used the search function, then introduced himself, asked questions, posted drafts to google & links for us to read & asked for critiques, etc.
    He was well received.
    Quote Originally Posted by MLK, Jr
    The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort & convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge & controversy.
    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie
    Citizenship is a verb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 27:12
    A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 31:17
    She dresses herself with strength and makes her arms strong.

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    Post

    I've withheld my intentions simply to remain true to the unbiased and neutral grounds on which I asked the questions.

    I've read the rules, I haven't broken any. This isn't a spam post or anything that I might have been able to search for using the search function. Thank you for pointing it out though.

    Just looking for some feedback from this target demograph. (In which I'm referring to in the first post as "Open Carry supporters".

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    Could have been diffrent

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnonut View Post
    I've withheld my intentions simply to remain true to the unbiased and neutral grounds on which I asked the questions.

    I've read the rules, I haven't broken any. This isn't a spam post or anything that I might have been able to search for using the search function. Thank you for pointing it out though.

    Just looking for some feedback from this target demograph. (In which I'm referring to in the first post as "Open Carry supporters".
    He needs practice being stopped, he was correct, but just to nervous. Would have been better if he was a lawyer. They know how to shoot their mouth off under pressure.

    But as a CCW holder, I would offer the same information. NONE.....

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    Another OC vid by Markedguardian

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnonut View Post
    I've withheld my intentions simply to remain true to the unbiased and neutral grounds on which I asked the questions.

    I've read the rules, I haven't broken any. This isn't a spam post or anything that I might have been able to search for using the search function. Thank you for pointing it out though.

    Just looking for some feedback from this target demograph. (In which I'm referring to in the first post as "Open Carry supporters".
    ;Markedguardian ,,, link to another vid by same "LAC" ,,, ;;; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucz2n0BmHz0

    This was quite interesting, yet, each day will bring it's own events to deal with.

    If your lookin' for the 15 mins of fame that others seem to believe is OK to randomly do, then maybe you could find a different *Hobby*.

    Like the LEO said in the 1st vid, "We have to deal with a lot of nut jobs out here !" The Clackamas Town Center Mall was an eye opener.

    Then I just found THIS Recent shooting ... "Police kill man armed with gun at Portland Adventist Medical Center." ,,,"""During the search, several officers encountered the man and shots were fired, Simpson said. Specific details of the shooting have not been released."""
    ,,,link;;; http://www.koinlocal6.com/news/local...-IwEUAWKA.cspx <<<

    If your are legitimately attempting to make a Public Issue of OCing, then you should try to make an effort to get Like minded people, organize a **2A Rally** at a Park, advertise thru various means & get the power of the people to back you up.

    The scriptures say in 1 Corinthians 6:12: "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient "
    :

    *It* my seem like the best thing to do with the most sincere intentions, but let some "" Common Sense "" rule the day by first asking yourself would You want to have someone make an issue out of an incident by which You just lost someone that You Love by a means which is controlled only by the state of mind of the individual at the moment of choosing between Life & Death of Innocent Bystanders ?

    I appreciate what you're trying to accomplish, but in all reality YOU ARE The "NRA" that Most LAC's have never seen.

    Please, consider the cause that you are representing & really think about what is going on Now.

    Peace & RKBA 4ever !
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 03-16-2013 at 09:26 PM. Reason: Rule 19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnonut View Post
    I've withheld my intentions simply to remain true to the unbiased and neutral grounds on which I asked the questions.

    I've read the rules, I haven't broken any. This isn't a spam post or anything that I might have been able to search for using the search function. Thank you for pointing it out though.

    Just looking for some feedback from this target demograph. (In which I'm referring to in the first post as "Open Carry supporters".
    This is a recurring topic on OCDO. Using the OCDO search function can be a challenge, but the video is neither "new" nor is it required to address the central issue you postulate.

    I did not watch that video because I have seen videos like that before.....same story, different actors. The feed back you seek has been post many many time before here on OCDO.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  10. #10
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott58dh
    If you are legitimately attempting to make a public issue of OCing, then you should try to make an effort to get like-minded people, organize a 2A rally at a park, advertise through various means & get the power of the people to back you up.
    There are different ways to educate the public.
    Many of us here simply go about our regular daily business while OC, showing people that we're normal everyday folks. Very low-key activism.
    There are times when the more organized, public, in-your-face method you advocate is appropriate.
    I've done both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnonut
    I've read the rules, I haven't broken any.
    Never said you did. I did, however, ask for more information, which you're not willing to share. That makes me wonder about the purpose of your request, and not in a good way.

    Just looking for some feedback from this target demograph. (Which I'm referring to in the first post as "Open Carry supporters".)
    You've gotten some, and if you look for similar questions across the fora here you can find more of the same. See below.

    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME
    This is a recurring topic on OCDO...
    The feedback you seek has been posted many many times before here on OCDO.
    What he said.

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    Regular Member LEGAL///EAGLE's Avatar
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    1. How do you think the person being stopped for open carry handled the situation?

    Markedguardian creates and looks forward to these types of police encounters. It appears to me that he is baiting the police into doing something wrong in order to score some cash in a lawsuit. The question is somewhat misleading. Warren wasn't stopped for open carry. A call was placed to the department for a suspicious individual. A citizen was alarmed at the sight of his ridiculous display. He was not stopped simply for open carry. He handled the situation as he always does. He attempts to argue constitutional law and statutes to police officers that are obviously not interested. Had he not been known by one of the two responding officers I believe this stop could have ended very differently.


    2. How do you think the police stopping this individual for open carry handled the situation?

    This coming from someone who really doesn't care much for the police department - They handled it perfectly.


    3. What do you think of the narrative summation at the beginning of the video (might want to rewind, pause and read it)?

    I think Markedguardian is being ridiculous - childish and laughable.

    And if you voted for Ron Paul or supported him in any way you wasted your time, money and vote - Not that your vote matters
    Last edited by LEGAL///EAGLE; 03-16-2013 at 10:35 PM.

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    What ridiculous display?

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    Regular Member LEGAL///EAGLE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    What ridiculous display?

    Just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean others won't find it ridiculous. Some people may find the open display of a pistol and a Ron Paul sign and a hunting rifle as suspicious, or scary. It may anger some people. I find it ridiculous. It amuses me.

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    Hi I'm looking to write a paper on Open Carry, please watch this video.

    Just because others find it ridiculous is no reason not to do it.

    I see a functional purpose to it, so I OC. I don't do it to bait cops, but God help the one who harasses me without his department taking appropriate action, because I will move heaven and earth making sure that consequences are assessed. So far, I have been detained twice. I have apology on record from the city attorney in Montgomery and the Deputy Chief adjusted training accordingly.

    So, I don't give a rat's ass what you think about my OC. I think it is ridiculous that you come on to a board dedicated to the exercise of a right and mock it. But, guess what? You are free to do so. My thinking that it is ridiculous should mean nothing.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

    <o>

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnonut View Post
    Hi I'm looking to write a paper on Open Carry
    --snipped--
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnonut View Post
    I've withheld my intentions simply to remain true to the unbiased and neutral grounds on which I asked the questions.

    I've read the rules, I haven't broken any. This isn't a spam post or anything that I might have been able to search for using the search function. Thank you for pointing it out though.

    Just looking for some feedback from this target demograph. (In which I'm referring to in the first post as "Open Carry supporters".
    You present a video and ask us to critique the actions of others while withholding information about your intent and purpose. Your "paper" is being written for what target audience. College assignment? With what parameters? You leave entirely too much out and use as your defense you haven't broken any rules.

    Well, sir, yes you have. The rule of common courtesy and forthright disclosure. We expect people to introduce themselves and explain what they want and why. They also disclose what country/state in which they reside. From what class the work has been assigned or for what periodical they are writing. In short, they are up front with the facts.

    There is no way that I foresee that your 3 questions will provide anything meaningful for a "paper" except for an opportunity to quote people out of context - for what purpose I know not.

    Until you can be more forthcoming and open with us, I recommend no further participation.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member LEGAL///EAGLE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I think it is ridiculous that you come on to a board dedicated to the exercise of a right and mock it.

    <o>
    When and where did I mock open carry? OC has a purpose and thank "god" it is (somewhat) legal in America. I don't side with activist or anyone who would actively seek an apology. What is done is done. I was very careful in my wording when responding to Warren, just as those officers where very careful in there handling of him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    We expect people to introduce themselves and explain what they want and why.
    I'm LEGAL///EAGLE and I don't want anything from you.

    Good luck with your paper, kid.

    The questions asked seem to be more concerned with action than mind-set. I would try to focus my paper on the mind-set of both the police and the "activist". What was the police officers main goals? What was Warren's main goal? Was he promoting Open Carry? Was his main goal promoting Ron Paul? In my opinion he did a terrible job at both and the police accomplished theirs.
    Last edited by LEGAL///EAGLE; 03-16-2013 at 09:44 PM.

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    Hi I'm looking to write a paper on Open Carry, please watch this video.

    You, sir, called the act of exercising the unadorned Right something that we should not do because another might think it "ridiculous." Your right to think that and say that. My right to think, as a result, that all you have to say is ridiculous and not worth my time.

    I now know all I need to about your POV. The rest would merely be dressing un an unappetizing salad. Maybe in a few months I'll check out what you have to say and see if you have learned anything from posting here. Moving on.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

    <o>

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    Regular Member LEGAL///EAGLE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    You, sir, called the act of exercising the unadorned Right something that we should not do because another might think it "ridiculous." Your right to think that and say that. My right to think, as a result, that all you have to say is ridiculous and not worth my time.

    I now know all I need to about your POV. The rest would merely be dressing un an unappetizing salad. Maybe in a few months I'll check out what you have to say and see if you have learned anything from posting here. Moving on.


    <o>
    You, "sir" are putting words in my mouth and I don't like anyone putting anything in my mouth. I choose what comes out of and goes into my mouth. Don't get **** hurt because I don't represent your way of thinking about this situation. There is more than one way to approach a situation such as this. ****** ** ** *****- plain and simple. I didn't want to come right out and say this but now I can't help but state facts. He is an activist with an agenda. Like I said I do not side with any activist. His agenda does not represent the entire OC community. He is not a representative of me. Had I been in a similar situation do you think I would ignorantly interrupt a police officer with meaningless dribble? No. I work the system. I know how to OC and stay off the Youtubes and police radar.

    MOVING ON
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 03-16-2013 at 10:17 PM. Reason: Insult edited

  19. #19
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGAL///EAGLE View Post
    Originally Posted by Grapeshot

    We expect people to introduce themselves and explain what they want and why.
    I'm LEGAL///EAGLE and I don't want anything from you.

    Good luck with your paper, kid.

    The questions asked seem to be more concerned with action than mind-set. I would try to focus my paper on the mind-set of both the police and the "activist". What was the police officers main goals? What was Warren's main goal? Was he promoting Open Carry? Was his main goal promoting Ron Paul? In my opinion he did a terrible job at both and the police accomplished theirs.
    Quoting out of context to make it appear differently is a violation of forum rules.

    You have some knowledge that he is a "kid" - do you know that he is not an adult who might be old enough to have kids of his own?

    The video is an old one and his been discussed before here - see no need to do it all again.
    Nevertheless I will give the OP an opportunity to explain more clearly what the motivation might be and how he expects our opinions to provide data for a "paper" of an undisclosed target audience.

    Holding in abeyance a decision regarding this thread.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  20. #20
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LE
    It appears to me that he is baiting the police into doing something wrong in order to score some cash in a lawsuit.
    And the officers can avoid that embarrassment by simply following the law & their training. (Hopefully their training includes simple things like "follow the law".)

    Quote Originally Posted by LE
    Warren wasn't stopped for open carry.
    A call was placed to the department for a suspicious individual.
    A citizen was alarmed at the sight of his ridiculous display.
    Since his exercise of Constitutionally-protected rights [1A & 2A] was the reason someone involved the police, how do you conclude that they were not also the reason he was stopped?

    Quote Originally Posted by LE
    He attempts to argue constitutional law and statutes to police officers that are obviously not interested.
    It's sad that the officers didn't want to know things that would help them not only do their job better, but avoid being included in civil rights suits. Once people think they know everything, they stop developing, even start backsliding.

    Quote Originally Posted by LE
    Had he not been known by one of the two responding officers I believe this stop could have ended very differently.
    You think other officers would have done illegal things to him (or worse illegal things... I haven't watched the video)? And why would the one officer knowing him cause any deviation in their following of their training?

    Quote Originally Posted by LE
    OC has a purpose and thank "god" it is (somewhat) legal in America.
    It's legal in most states, to varying degrees. Most places it's a protected right, some places it's infringed (a license is required), a very few places prohibit it entirely or restrict it so badly that it may as well not exist.

    I don't side with activist [sic] or anyone who would actively seek an apology.
    If people don't speak up when things are wrong, they won't get changed.

  21. #21
    Regular Member LEGAL///EAGLE's Avatar
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    Are you serious ? What you did just proves the point I made. lol

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    And the officers can avoid that embarrassment by simply following the law & their training. (Hopefully their training includes simple things like "follow the law".)


    Since his exercise of Constitutionally-protected rights [1A & 2A] was the reason someone involved the police, how do you conclude that they were not also the reason he was stopped?


    It's sad that the officers didn't want to know things that would help them not only do their job better, but avoid being included in civil rights suits. Once people think they know everything, they stop developing, even start backsliding.


    You think other officers would have done illegal things to him (or worse illegal things... I haven't watched the video)? And why would the one officer knowing him cause any deviation in their following of their training?


    It's legal in most states, to varying degrees. Most places it's a protected right, some places it's infringed (a license is required), a very few places prohibit it entirely or restrict it so badly that it may as well not exist.


    If people don't speak up when things are wrong, they won't get changed.
    All I got from your post was that I needed to add the N to "known". Thanks, buddy. If you think I'm going to respond to all of your quotes - think again. Maybe I should pull the same song and dance as Grapeshot and accuse you of taking things out of context.

    Wait a minute, you edited my opinion of warren but your website specifically says you do not want to discuss the open carry of long guns. You have some serious issues. How can you support the second amendment yet not the first?

    You pick and choose, huh? edit out the common sense leave the nonsense ?

    If I met you in a meet and greet would you get huffy and walk away if I disagreed with you? You can't edit a person IRL - and that's where I do my business - you do yours in a padded, safe, controllable environment. The real world isn't as controllable as you may like
    Last edited by LEGAL///EAGLE; 03-16-2013 at 10:46 PM.

  22. #22
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGAL///EAGLE View Post
    Are you serious ? What you did just proves the point I made. lol
    Very serious - OCDO is private property, not a free speech anything goes zone.
    When you register, you agree to abide by the Forum Rules -it would behoove you to review them.

    We are read by the media, politicians, pro and anti people - indeed non-registered people make up about 75% of our readership at any given time. The forum will operate within boundaries of proper decorum.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Hi I'm looking to write a paper on Open Carry, please watch this video.

    Folks have the right to say anything they want. They just don't have the right to use someone else's soap box!


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

    <o>

  24. #24
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    The OP has not been back in nearly 3 weeks.

    Present conversation is totally off-topic and has become a train wreck.

    Locking the thread for obvious reasons.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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