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Thread: NVFAC membership meeting

  1. #1
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    NVFAC membership meeting

    Well, there's two and half hours of my life I'll never get back.

    Stephanie
    big guys wife
    Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner, Liberty is a well armed lamb protesting the vote.
    Ben Franklin

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    Agreed we are heading out right now. So I am sure we will all discuss it later.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Your reports will make the difference as to whether or not I sign up as a member.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Your reports will make the difference as to whether or not I sign up as a member.
    Both VS and TBG commented that they would rather have gone to the Pahrump rally.

    Put all of this together, and I think you have your answer. Send your money to GOA.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Yeah, now I'm just morbidly curious...
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Yeah, now I'm just morbidly curious...
    What is it 25 bucks to join? Take that 25 and just light a match to it. Thats all I have to say right now. When my thoughts are clearer and I am not as steamed then maybe I can say more.



    Actually take by our 25 bucks and send it to Stillwater firearms. They walk the talk and get things done.
    Last edited by Vegassteve; 02-24-2013 at 02:16 AM.

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    Regular Member john-in-reno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegassteve View Post
    Take that 25 and just light a match to it.
    <Sarcasm on> I never saw that coming!!!!! <Sarcasm off>
    http://washoecountygunrights.blogspot.com/

    *** I am NOT a Lawyer, and I DO NOT have any LEGAL EXPERIENCE OR QUALIFICATIONS ***

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    The meeting started about 1pm. We sat through all of the board members giving their reports. Nothing was brought forth by most of the board members that we did not already know from email blasts and the newsletter. Percentage wise the turnout was good with approximately 100 of 400 members in attendance.

    The floor was then opened up for member comments. An older gentleman in front of me gave the best moments of the entire proceeding when he touched on things such as how old the group was. Very few young folks and how we needed to push for them to get involved. He admonished us to get involved. He gave us a rundown of which way the country is going and how we are losing the fight. It was a great speech and he was nearly 100% right on everything he said. Too bad it was not recorded.

    Merlin made some comments and asked some thoughtful questions of the board for a good discussion. Perhaps he will share that with us.

    One of the board members made comments about carry in airports. He said he spoke with a Metro Sargent about it and when the officer got back to him he was told that it was ok to carry outside the airport terminals, but not in the building. When it was my turn to talk I brought up that it is not always a good idea to get your info from a cop as more times than not you will get a wrong answer. I then explained that it is legal to open carry in all common public areas of the airport. Only secure areas were off limits. That 202.3673 can prohibit the conceal carry of a firearm only.
    I hope that director, sorry I can't remember his name, did not take offense as that was not my intention, but only to correct the false information.

    I then attempted to bring up for a discussion and vote of the membership on 3 by-law changes I thought needed to be considered. We were told by president Don Turner that since it was not on the agenda that no motions would be heard by the membership, but I could submit them to the board for consideration. I had emailed Don a few days before the meeting to tell him what I was proposing and his email back to me only told me that he objected to one of the changes but if I felt it was something I needed to do go ahead. No mention that I would not be allowed to make those motions. At this point I asked why the membership was not informed that all such motions were to be submitted in advance? He told me we were, at which point I indicated that I must have missed that memo. I was invited to go ahead and make my points but it was my decision not to at that point as I did not see any reason to it if we could not decide anything.

    I read through the bylaws and from doing so it was my understanding the general membership meeting was for exactly such motions. It does say at the end of the bylaws that Roberts rules apply. Not being a parliamentarian I was not aware of such procedures. I'm more of a jump in with both feet and get things done kind of guy and I have low tolerance for such game playing. See my proposed amendments at the end of this rant.

    Vegassteve made a great argument against Coalition support of the Clark County Shooting Complex. By my estimate about half agreed judging by applause, and half didn't or more likely had not considered it and were taken by surprise. His position was met with stiff opposition by Don Turner as well as other members. By my guess the opposition came from those who enjoy the facilities and did not want to give up using the park for personal reasons. Again, that is just my opinion. Very good job Steve, but unfortunately the deck was stacked against you.

    Bob Irwin shamelessly promoted himself and his radio, and soon to be TV program, at every opportunity.


    TBG


    The three bylaws I was trying to change were the following:

    4.1.5 Candidates for President and First Vice
    ‐President shall have to have served a minimum of one year as
    a member of the Board within the past two (2) years. (I believe any member in good standing should be able to run for office.)

    3.5.1 The right to hold any of the various offices of the Coalition shall be limited to individual members
    who have reached the age of twenty
    ‐one (21) and are residents of Nevada.
    (I want to change that to 18. Those who can vote, enter into a contract and fight and die for our rights should have full rights.)

    4.1.1 Initial Organization: from the date of Incorporation through a maximum of a three year period, the
    officers of the Coalition will be appointed by the sitting President with input from the existing Board.
    Officers are appointed by the President during this time period, and serve at the pleasure of the
    President. No later than three years after the date of incorporation, and upon a majority vote of the
    membership, the following provisions will apply. (I see no reason to wait 2 more years for the membership to have a say in who leads us. The vote should be held at the next general membership meeting.)
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

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    My re reading of the by laws last night confirms you were in the right. Don Turner LIED to us all and violated the by-laws. Trust me had it been only a Roberts Rules issue with what you wanted I would have stepped in and done it by the rules. It has been 31 years since I was 16 years old and on the state of Missouri FFA champion Parliamentary team, but I still recall enough to do it correctly.

    I saw all I need yesterday to know I will not renew. With the exception of Larry Rhodes the board is dominated by those who have a stake in things like the county park and promoting themselves. I know they presented many of the laws we want for this year but I have no proof that the NVFAC helped to get them introduced or shaped. I base that on the fact that they couldnt answer a couple of questions about them.

    This loose group of folks on this forum got TV time a month ago from about 30 if us walking on the streets. Yet the largest firearms rights group in the state at its first meeting had no media present. A shame, and a sham.

    How these so called defenders of our rights and liberty can continue to promote the park and give money to the county astounds me.
    Last edited by Vegassteve; 02-24-2013 at 04:12 PM.

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    All I can add is that the seats were really hard!

    Seriously, though, I was really, really disappointed. It began as a rah-rah rally for the shooting park with John Lee leading the cheer. Some of these people need to really get their heads out of the backsides. Support the park=support the county=never getting rid of handgun registration. Yes, Merlin and Steve made some really great points as did the gentleman about the media.

    I'm really torn about staying a member. We really do need someone to represent us in Carson City but I'm not sure the NVFAC is what we need.

    Stephanie
    big guys wife
    Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner, Liberty is a well armed lamb protesting the vote.
    Ben Franklin

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    [With the exception of Larry Rhodes the board is dominated by those who have a stake in things like the county park and promoting themselves. This loose group of folks on this forum got TV time a month ago from about 30 if us walking on the streets. Yet the largest firearms rights group in the state at its first meeting had no media present. A shame, and a sham.

    How these so called defenders of our rights and liberty can continue to promote the park and give money to the county astounds me


    I agree, Steve. Especially Bob Irwin-what an egotistical narcissist! Everytime he spoke he mentioned his radio show-he should have bought advertising time.

    You are dead on about the media. If Act Now had had a meeting, the press would have been there but then again I'm not sure the press attending yesterday would have been a good thing-they would have only played the clip of Tim and Don having a little exchange.


    Stephanie
    Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner, Liberty is a well armed lamb protesting the vote.
    Ben Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigguyswife View Post

    I'm really torn about staying a member. We really do need someone to represent us in Carson City but I'm not sure the NVFAC is what we need.

    Stephanie
    big guys wife
    Stillwater led the way years past. I have no doubt they will still be a force. We are close to two years into this group and they only have 400 members from all of Nevada. I can assure you for the first year at least they did not have their act together and now they are playing catch up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    The three bylaws I was trying to change were the following:

    4.1.5 Candidates for President and First Vice‐President shall have to have served a minimum of one year as a member of the Board within the past two (2) years.
    This makes sense. While you see it as organizational incest, it DOES prevent an anti-gun group from organizing a takeover by simply boosting membership rolls and voting their people into leadership.

    After all, if the hoplophobes took over, they would make sure NVFAC made no progress on civil rights, they would support the county park, and would appoint Bob Irwin to the Board.

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegassteve View Post
    Stillwater led the way years past. I have no doubt they will still be a force. We are close to two years into this group and they only have 400 members from all of Nevada. I can assure you for the first year at least they did not have their act together and now they are playing catch up.
    Membership is a catch 22. There have been many sitting on the fence waiting to see what the Coalition can do before joining, but the Coalition can't do anything without membership. I can see our lobbyist going into meet one of our legislators. "How many members do you represent?" Lobbyist, "400+." "Only 400 in my district?" Lobbyist "er, well, no, 400 in Nevada." "Get the hell out of my office."

    Even though I know there are some real problems with the Coalition, I still think it is our best bet to lobby Carson City. The problems can be overcome by activist members. We can make the changes needed. There are tools in place for getting that done. I think how much could be accomplished if all the members of this forum joined in the fracas. There is nothing that happened in the meeting yesterday, disturbing as it may have been, that can't be overcome and corrected. I'm not about to toss in the towel, but perhaps I'm just not smart enough to know it can't be done.

    Instead of those of you who have been sitting on the fence, or current members saying to hell with it, I invite you to join me and make it what it should be. An organization where we the members have a true independent voice. All it will take to make some needed changes is 25 members to sign a petition for a new membership meeting where we can set the agenda, and if we turn out enough votes, getír done. I believe anything you get without effort isn't worth having.

    TBG
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DVC View Post
    This makes sense. While you see it as organizational incest, it DOES prevent an anti-gun group from organizing a takeover by simply boosting membership rolls and voting their people into leadership.

    After all, if the hoplophobes took over, they would make sure NVFAC made no progress on civil rights, they would support the county park, and would appoint Bob Irwin to the Board.

    Although your point is well taken, what's to stop them from getting a seat on the board for a year and then running? They would also have to stuff the membership with enough votes to elect this ringer. This is exactly why we must be ever vigilant. I have always had a policy of letting the competition worry about what I was doing and not spending my time worrying about what they were doing. Winners act, loser react. It is also one of my reasons for having a strong vocal membership. We can always force change, change of leadership if needed.

    TBG
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post

    Instead of those of you who have been sitting on the fence, or current members saying to hell with it, I invite you to join me and make it what it should be. An organization where we the members have a true independent voice. All it will take to make some needed changes is 25 members to sign a petition for a new membership meeting where we can set the agenda, and if we turn out enough votes, getír done. I believe anything you get without effort isn't worth having.

    TBG
    Well as far as I could tell we had zero voice. Don Turner just decided to make up the rules it seems. I will sign. I will write other members, if I knew how to get contact info. I will give it that one last shot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    Although your point is well taken, what's to stop them from getting a seat on the board for a year and then running? They would also have to stuff the membership with enough votes to elect this ringer. This is exactly why we must be ever vigilant. I have always had a policy of letting the competition worry about what I was doing and not spending my time worrying about what they were doing. Winners act, loser react. It is also one of my reasons for having a strong vocal membership. We can always force change, change of leadership if needed.

    TBG
    It really would not take much money to stage a coup. NVFAC has only 400 members. How many of those are active enough to know who else is in the club well enough to know those sailing under false colors?

    The rule that the board is appointed by the Big Cheese gives the group time to build membership to the point where a false flag op would be prohibitively expensive and cumbersome.

    Even though I am no fan of NVFAC, I see these two rules as being appropriate, even necessary.

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegassteve View Post
    Well as far as I could tell we had zero voice. Don Turner just decided to make up the rules it seems. I will sign. I will write other members, if I knew how to get contact info. I will give it that one last shot.
    There is no doubt that we had zero voice. The question is, are you and I lone voices in the wilderness, or are there enough others who will raise their voices with us. If my ideas are opposed by the majority of the membership, so be it. All I was asking for was for my opinions as a member to be heard and considered by the membership. There is little value in talking to a wall. We simply need 25+ members to agree to sign on so that we can call a special meeting for all voices to be heard and considered. Then if we can get that number, have enough members to show up to listen, discuss and vote. We will then let the chips fall where they may.

    If we were able to get the needed 25, then we would need enough people in both the south and the north to cover us in case the meeting was held up north. Many up north can't get here, and many in the south can't get up there. We would need the bases covered.

    Is there any support?

    TBG
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

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    I have read this thread at least twice now. I was searching for a group where my voice may count and from what I see this is not it. It seems there are some over powered egos sitting at the top of the organization there. Why should I waste my money on an organization that has these problems?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bmeierholtz View Post
    I have read this thread at least twice now. I was searching for a group where my voice may count and from what I see this is not it. It seems there are some over powered egos sitting at the top of the organization there. Why should I waste my money on an organization that has these problems?
    You only get in life those things you're willing to work, or if needed, fight for. Nobody gives you anything.
    It is going to be interesting WTSHTF to see all the people standing in the street with their fists in the air yelling "why didn't somebody do something about this?" For me, I won't be one of them.

    TBG
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

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    I refuse to be one of those myself. I just feel my money will be better spent in a different venue is all. I honestly have the feeling that if I do join them, or donate, that just maybe the money would not be used properly. Nothing is free, and I am aware that it takes money to run an organization such as this. With that said, I will continue my search for what I feel is a better run organization. For those that are involved with them, do not be offended by how I feel, after all, that is just my opinion.

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    As from the start of this NVFAC debate, I've been unable to understand. There has been anti-NVFAC rhetoric since day one.

    NVFAC has been forthcoming. "Growing pains"? Sure. Not yet even 1.5 years old.

    Much ado about nothing was made of the IRS determination of 501(C)4 status. That whole debate was irrelevant. One does NOT even need any 501(C) status. NVFAC has been a Nevada non-profit corporation since day one - duly filed with the Nevada SecState. But NVFAC did indeed seek - and finally obtained (after several month delay by the IRS) - federal 501(C)4 status. Wasn't required, but we did. Yet, somehow it was our fault the IRS was not speedy enough in making their determination.

    Yet NVFAC has been engaged. And now has a full time (for at least a couple of months) paid lobbyist. (We still hope to raise funds to hire the lobbyist for the last two months of the session.)

    NVFAC does not oppose efforts/agenda of this OC group. Yet some "badmouth" NVFAC. And yet again want to do a "takeover."

    I'm told that most gun groups in Clark County have failed within the first year due to infighting.

    Can we not agree we're all in this together??

    We can argue till we're blue in the face about the Clark County Shooting Complex. The fact is, shooters wanted it - NOT the County Commissioners. And it is NOT NVFAC's baby. It belongs to the county. Sure, our current NVFAC President was involved in the shooting park's planning, etc. But is no longer affiliated with it. Why can't we fight the good battle TOGETHER to repeal Clark County's draconian (and unconstitutional, in my opinion) handgun registration scheme?? Et al, etc.

    We all have a lot on our collective plate.

    Thanks for the great remarks about Stillwater Firearms Ass'n. I've turned over my position as Chairman of its Legislative Action Cmte to Sam McGuire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by varminter22 View Post
    As from the start of this NVFAC debate, I've been unable to understand. There has been anti-NVFAC rhetoric since day one.

    NVFAC has been forthcoming. "Growing pains"? Sure. Not yet even 1.5 years old.
    Let me answer some of these questions.

    First the park. Some of us here do not wish our money going to a group that infringes on our rights. That group in this case is Clark Co. Would you have held the meeting at a complex that the brady group ran? Pretty sure you wouldnt have. Yet you are asking us to fight the battle and then giving our money to the very group(county) we fight.

    Second a take over. No one is advocating a full take over. One member though would have liked to have put forth motions to be voted on. And that member followed the by laws to do so. The president though would not allow it. He made up his own rules. So now it seems we must go a different route. Getting signatures and forcing a vote. I am not even confident that will work. Why? Because who is to say the president just doesnt make up a new rule?

    Third in the 1.5 years some of us have sent issues to the group to be looked at and in some cases asked for the help of the org to add some weight and help. I am fairly certain that in each of those issues nothing was done. From the parks, DMV, NLV, library etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegassteve View Post
    Let me answer some of these questions.

    First the park. Some of us here do not wish our money going to a group that infringes on our rights. That group in this case is Clark Co. Would you have held the meeting at a complex that the brady group ran? Pretty sure you wouldnt have. Yet you are asking us to fight the battle and then giving our money to the very group(county) we fight.

    Second a take over. No one is advocating a full take over. One member though would have liked to have put forth motions to be voted on. And that member followed the by laws to do so. The president though would not allow it. He made up his own rules. So now it seems we must go a different route. Getting signatures and forcing a vote. I am not even confident that will work. Why? Because who is to say the president just doesnt make up a new rule?

    Third in the 1.5 years some of us have sent issues to the group to be looked at and in some cases asked for the help of the org to add some weight and help. I am fairly certain that in each of those issues nothing was done. From the parks, DMV, NLV, library etc.
    Thanks, Steve.

    I too am disgusted with Clark County politics. But if we are to take it to the extreme, why not say, "Move out of Clark County"??

    Don't misunderstand. I agree the County needs new leadership and needs to repeal many ordinances.

    I'll go back and re-read the bylaws. It does, however, make sense to give fair notice to the entire membership before voting on items of such importance (such as bylaws.)

    The proposed amendments can still be made. Heck, I even encourage it.

    NVFAC has been engaged in many issues/areas. For example: http://www.nvfac.org/LegislativeDivision.aspx

  25. #25
    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by varminter22 View Post
    As from the start of this NVFAC debate, I've been unable to understand. There has been anti-NVFAC rhetoric since day one.

    NVFAC has been forthcoming. "Growing pains"? Sure. Not yet even 1.5 years old.

    Much ado about nothing was made of the IRS determination of 501(C)4 status. That whole debate was irrelevant. One does NOT even need any 501(C) status. NVFAC has been a Nevada non-profit corporation since day one - duly filed with the Nevada SecState. But NVFAC did indeed seek - and finally obtained (after several month delay by the IRS) - federal 501(C)4 status. Wasn't required, but we did. Yet, somehow it was our fault the IRS was not speedy enough in making their determination.

    Yet NVFAC has been engaged. And now has a full time (for at least a couple of months) paid lobbyist. (We still hope to raise funds to hire the lobbyist for the last two months of the session.)

    NVFAC does not oppose efforts/agenda of this OC group. Yet some "badmouth" NVFAC. And yet again want to do a "takeover."

    I'm told that most gun groups in Clark County have failed within the first year due to infighting.

    Can we not agree we're all in this together??

    We can argue till we're blue in the face about the Clark County Shooting Complex. The fact is, shooters wanted it - NOT the County Commissioners. And it is NOT NVFAC's baby. It belongs to the county. Sure, our current NVFAC President was involved in the shooting park's planning, etc. But is no longer affiliated with it. Why can't we fight the good battle TOGETHER to repeal Clark County's draconian (and unconstitutional, in my opinion) handgun registration scheme?? Et al, etc.

    We all have a lot on our collective plate.

    Thanks for the great remarks about Stillwater Firearms Ass'n. I've turned over my position as Chairman of its Legislative Action Cmte to Sam McGuire.
    I think saying that "yet again want to do a takeover" is not accurate. At no time did I, or anyone else that I know of, say they want to "take over" the NVFAC. I am now, and intend to stay, a member. I have constantly argued that people should join and help with the effort in Carson City. In fact I intend to further donate to the lobby effort. I have constantly argued on this forum that the Coalition is suffering growing pains but that isn't reason not to join. I simply believe as it is having these growing pains the Coalition should be sensitive (politically correct word) to the opinions of the membership and understand that all members need to feel they have a say in the direction it takes. It is my belief that some of the policies of the Coalition gives excuse for some not to join. Yes, there are those that will not join no matter what and will do everything they can to get others not to join in the effort. There are some that believe exclusively in individual efforts and do so with great vigor. I applaud them for their efforts. I believe there are those who just sit back, never make any kind of effort, want others to do all the work, do it their way and spend their time bitching and complaining. I have no time for them. I personally think that differences of opinion do not have to be divisive and can help keep the Coalition aimed in the right direction.

    I'm not accusing anyone of this, but I have been involved in membership groups where people at the top are so dug in that they resent anyone they feel is a threat to their power. They get the notion that they own it and have ultimate say. They will not tolerate anyone with an opposing opinion. These kinds of things are exactly why we need an active membership. Neither entrenchment at the top, nor take overís, which will become entrenchments at the top, are good for the Coalition.

    You and I have spoken about some things that we agree on and there are obviously things we don't, but there is either room for everyone or no one at all.

    TBG
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

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