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Thread: Concealed weapon charge - Leesburg

  1. #1
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    Concealed weapon charge - Leesburg

    Town of Leesburg PD seized a firearm "for officer safety", subsequently charging client with violation of 18.2-308; client advised the cop of the Cuccinelli opinion on the subject of "secured within a closed container", but the cop ignored what he'd said and proceeded to toss the vehicle, finding nothing. There was no arrest, so there was no "search incidental to an arrest"; client was charged by summons.

    I'd like to find people who have personal knowledge of the Town PD's policy regarding seizure of firearms and their tendency to search vehicles for no good reason. And, in particular, the fact that the Town PD won't return unlawfully seized firearms unless you hire an attorney and fight with them in court about it.

    Moreover, it appears to me that the town has a policy of suppression of firearm possession. That issue has arisen in different contexts, but I see this as an expression of that policy. I would very much like to speak with anyone with personal knowledge of facts supporting this hypothesis.
    Last edited by user; 02-24-2013 at 05:48 PM.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Wow that is frustrating! The legislators write it in the law in plain English, the Attorney General writes it in an opinion in plain English, and the stupid cop ignores it all and makes up his own law.

    This is the kind of LEO that needs to have their pension converted into a new home and 3 new cars for the victim here.

    TFred

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Sterling Arsenal may have some info - they seem to have the finger on the pulse of the area.

    http://www.sterlingarsenal.com/
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    Secured Compartment Case Law

    Dan,

    On the off chance that you have not yet seen this case, Doulgerakis v. Com was recently released by the Court of Appeals. As a matter of fact, I was able to use it just this past week. (Fresh out of the wrapper!)

    I realize that this is not directly responsive to your inquiry, but I wanted to post it here so that others may benefit from it.

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    Wow that is great case law!

    Now to just get the Leesburg to read and comprehend english.....

    Any idea how it might apply to a motorcycle and a saddlebag or tank bag?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmedBarrister View Post
    Dan,

    On the off chance that you have not yet seen this case, Doulgerakis v. Com was recently released by the Court of Appeals. As a matter of fact, I was able to use it just this past week. (Fresh out of the wrapper!)

    I realize that this is not directly responsive to your inquiry, but I wanted to post it here so that others may benefit from it.
    Thanks for that cite, I had seen that opinion. I've already litigated this issue in the Leesburg GDC, which is where I first did that memorandum on the subject (incorporating that same legislative history the Ct. Apps. referred to, which I found out about from one of the legislators). So I know they already know about it. The point is that they're still charging people this way, having actual notice that they shouldn't be.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member HearseGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ric in Richmond View Post
    Wow that is great case law!

    Now to just get the Leesburg to read and comprehend english.....

    Any idea how it might apply to a motorcycle and a saddlebag or tank bag?
    That is a great read!

    Ric, i just asked the same about the motorcycle just yesterday as well.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...cycle-OC/page2

    From what i can gather, and since a MC is a vehicle, and looking up the definition of secure, i think a tank bag, saddle bag, fork bag, etc are acceptable to store your firearm with out a CHP so long as they can be fastened somehow, which most all can.

    Where i start thinking a little differently, specifically with the case ArmedBarrister just posted, is where it says, "Officer Jones asked if there was anything in the glove box that would cause him concern".

    I would almost be inclined to say no. I mean why would a lawfully owned, properly secured fire arm cause concern? Out of sight out of mind. Give me my ticket and send me on my way. End of story. That's just my way of looking at it. Im sure others feel differently. Of course once you say, "no", i guess he goes to, "ok you mind if i take a look"? Then your screwed either way.
    Last edited by HearseGuy; 02-24-2013 at 07:15 PM.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HearseGuy View Post
    That is a great read!

    Ric, i just asked the same about the motorcycle just yesterday as well.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...cycle-OC/page2

    From what i can gather, and since a MC is a vehicle, and looking up the definition of secure, i think a tank bag, saddle bag, fork bag, etc are acceptable to store your firearm with out a CHP so long as they can be fastened somehow, which most all can.

    Where i start thinking a little differently, specifically with the case ArmedBarrister just posted, is where it says, "Officer Jones asked if there was anything in the glove box that would cause him concern".

    I would almost be inclined to say no. I mean why would a lawfully owned, properly secured fire arm cause concern? Out of sight out of mind. Give me my ticket and send me on my way. End of story. Thats just my way of looking at it. Im sure others feel differently.
    I would, and I have already stated so in earlier posts, with no hesitation whatsoever answer "no." I know that the odds are prohibitively low that a properly holstered handgun, secured in a glove box, will ever randomly fire a round at a police officer. And I seriously doubt he would have any concern over whether my firearm has been properly cleaned and oiled, so the honest, legal, truthful and appropriate answer is absolutely "no!"

    Now if you are a deranged, criminally insane cop-killer with a death wish, you may have a different answer. Each of us has to choose what is appropriate for him or herself.

    TFred

    ETA: I'll go one step farther. According to the well-documented double standard, we mere citizens are not allowed to lie to a LEO. If you answer anything OTHER than "no", that means that you are saying the LEO SHOULD be CONCERNED about your firearm in the glove box. Think about that. What are you in fact saying to the officer: That you are a threat to his or her safety. I would submit that unless you are that aforementioned crazy person, you just lied.
    Last edited by TFred; 02-24-2013 at 07:16 PM.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HearseGuy View Post
    That is a great read!

    Ric, i just asked the same about the motorcycle just yesterday as well.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...cycle-OC/page2

    From what i can gather, and since a MC is a vehicle, and looking up the definition of secure, i think a tank bag, saddle bag, fork bag, etc are acceptable to store your firearm with out a CHP so long as they can be fastened somehow, which most all can.

    Where i start thinking a little differently, specifically with the case ArmedBarrister just posted, is where it says, "Officer Jones asked if there was anything in the glove box that would cause him concern".

    I would almost be inclined to say no. I mean why would a lawfully owned, properly secured fire arm cause concern? Out of sight out of mind. Give me my ticket and send me on my way. End of story. Thats just my way of looking at it. Im sure others feel differently.
    Don't want to hijack Users thread. I think this will be an important step in LEO Education.
    Quick answer to your question, it's illegal to lie to a cop but there's no law that says you have to volunteer information.

  10. #10
    Regular Member HearseGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I would, and I have already stated so in earlier posts, with no hesitation whatsoever answer "no." I know that the odds are prohibitively low that a properly holstered handgun, secured in a glove box, will ever randomly fire a round at a police officer. And I seriously doubt he would have any concern over whether my firearm has been properly cleaned and oiled, so the honest, legal, truthful and appropriate answer is absolutely "no!"

    Now if you are a deranged, criminally insane cop-killer with a death wish, you may have a different answer. Each of us has to choose what is appropriate for him or herself.

    TFred

    ETA: I'll go one step farther. According to the well-documented double standard, we mere citizens are not allowed to lie to a LEO. If you answer anything OTHER than "no", that means that you are saying the LEO SHOULD be CONCERNED about your firearm in the glove box. Think about that. What are you in fact saying to the officer: That you are a threat to his or her safety. I would submit that unless you are that aforementioned crazy person, you just lied.
    What a fantastic answer. Just a great way to look at it. Im glad im not the only one who finds that the logical answer!

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    Quote Originally Posted by HearseGuy View Post
    That is a great read!

    Ric, i just asked the same about the motorcycle just yesterday as well.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...cycle-OC/page2

    From what i can gather, and since a MC is a vehicle, and looking up the definition of secure, i think a tank bag, saddle bag, fork bag, etc are acceptable to store your firearm with out a CHP so long as they can be fastened somehow, which most all can.

    Where i start thinking a little differently, specifically with the case ArmedBarrister just posted, is where it says, "Officer Jones asked if there was anything in the glove box that would cause him concern".

    I would almost be inclined to say no. I mean why would a lawfully owned, properly secured fire arm cause concern? Out of sight out of mind. Give me my ticket and send me on my way. End of story. That's just my way of looking at it. Im sure others feel differently. Of course once you say, "no", i guess he goes to, "ok you mind if i take a look"? Then your screwed either way.
    I got five dollars that says its a deliberately vague question that leaves the cop lotsa lattitude.

    For example, since when I am supposed to spend time figuring out what would cause my government concern? And, how am I to be liable for whether I figure it out according to their wishes? Violation of the 1A right to freedom of thought, right there.
    Last edited by Citizen; 02-24-2013 at 11:20 PM.
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    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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  12. #12
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Starting to get some information Dan.
    PM sent

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    they seem to have the finger on the pulse of the area.
    hardly.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    I would very much like to speak with anyone with personal knowledge of facts supporting this hypothesis.
    Sent you a stack of emails.. between me, the chief, the mayor and the town attorney. I have one more printed that I need to scan and send to you tomorrow.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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