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Thread: I need help with CPL.

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    I need help with CPL.

    I was "wrongfully" denied a CPL from Ottawa County back in Aug 2012. I really need the laws to change so I can carry in my car, or to have the State issue the CPL's. Until that happens I'm stuck. Anyone want to point me in the right direction to appeal a denial ? It "should" be an easy win, but I don't have alot of money to fight it. Anyone know if it will do any good to appeal ? What are the odds of winning against the very establishment that denied it in the first place ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    I was "wrongfully" denied a CPL from Ottawa County back in Aug 2012. I really need the laws to change so I can carry in my car, or to have the State issue the CPL's. Until that happens I'm stuck. Anyone want to point me in the right direction to appeal a denial ? It "should" be an easy win, but I don't have alot of money to fight it. Anyone know if it will do any good to appeal ? What are the odds of winning against the very establishment that denied it in the first place ?
    What is their reason for denying it? The reason I ask is before I give my two cents on whether it's worth appealing I would like to know their reason.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    I was "wrongfully" denied a CPL from Ottawa County back in Aug 2012. I really need the laws to change so I can carry in my car, or to have the State issue the CPL's. Until that happens I'm stuck. Anyone want to point me in the right direction to appeal a denial ? It "should" be an easy win, but I don't have alot of money to fight it. Anyone know if it will do any good to appeal ? What are the odds of winning against the very establishment that denied it in the first place ?
    YES, appeal the case to the circuit court if you have been wrongfully denied; there may be timelines regarding this that have already passed. Ottawa County, at one time the most Republican county in the country, has a history of this:

    http://caselaw.findlaw.com/mi-court-...s/1400465.html

    The prosecutor is BIG in the R party...and some here think the Republican Party is all about gun rights...
    Last edited by DrTodd; 02-25-2013 at 08:08 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    There is "nothing" on that long list of things that apply to me. They will not tell me what their looking at for the denial. I was "questioned" for a felony, but I proved my innocence with a polygragh, that I asked for. The polygrapher said I flat lined the test, duh, I didn't do anything. I've had a distruction of property over 8 years ago(I threw my ex wifes glasses out the car window, when she wouldn't get out of my car, the car was parked and I threw them out on the lawn.) I got popped for disturbing the piece for yelling at the neighbor lady, for harassing my family 3 years ago. (I was in my drive way at the time.) My criminal record isn't flawless.
    Last edited by casper; 02-26-2013 at 01:39 PM.

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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    I was "wrongfully" denied a CPL from Ottawa County back in Aug 2012. I really need the laws to change so I can carry in my car, or to have the State issue the CPL's. Until that happens I'm stuck. Anyone want to point me in the right direction to appeal a denial ? It "should" be an easy win, but I don't have alot of money to fight it. Anyone know if it will do any good to appeal ? What are the odds of winning against the very establishment that denied it in the first place ?
    Depends on your case. You can appeal it yourself. Why were you denied? The CPL laws are pretty cut-and-dried. If you were truly wrongfully denied it should be an easy self-appeal win.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    There is "nothing" on that long list of things that apply to me. They will not tell me what their looking at for the denial. I was "questioned" for a felony, but I proved my innocence with a polygragh, that I asked for. The polygrapher said I flat lined the test, duh, I didn't do anything. I've had a distruction of property over 8 years ago(I threw my ex wifes glasses out the car window, when she wouldn't get out of my car.) I got popped for disturbing the piece for yelling at the neighbor lady, for harassing my family 3 years ago. My criminal record isn't flawless.
    Most likely they made the determination that issuing the license would be "detrimental to the safety of the applicant or to any other individual" which is much like the case to which I provided a link above. Read that case and you will see that the applicant was no "saint"... but the law does not require you to be one. As griffin stated, you may initiate the action on your own and, if it is clear cut, you will prevail.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Most likely they made the determination that issuing the license would be "detrimental to the safety of the applicant or to any other individual" which is much like the case to which I provided a link above. Read that case and you will see that the applicant was no "saint"... but the law does not require you to be one. As griffin stated, you may initiate the action on your own and, if it is clear cut, you will prevail.
    That's how they wrote it. The key word in my defence is (would).

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: I need help with CPL.

    Casper - follow Todd's & Griff's advice. County boards are full of political jockeys who dick around with people for sport at times. Assuming you are telling the truth, you have nothing in your past that THE LAW says will disqualify you. These goofs made a judgement call outside of the law. My bet is once they get notice you have filed a motion with the court, you magically will receive a "come pick it up call" Wayne Co. Plays this game also. I would guess that most of the people wrongfully denied just give up. This is exactly what these "king like" figures want...control over the masses.
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    They are playing games with me. I got a purchace permit in June of last year and it went right through with no delay, then in August I went to get another one and they denied me a permit. Even the "tool" that handles the appeals said no. Now that it gets called into NICS it magically goes right through again. Go figure huh. They should be held accountable for abusing the rights of people. Those badges are to protect the people, not rule over them, right. I have been buying long guns and hand guns for over 25 years. Don't they have a record of that ?
    Last edited by casper; 02-26-2013 at 09:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    That's how they wrote it. The key word in my defence is (would).
    Two separate convictions plus other involvement with the police will be a tough nut to crack. Sounds like they are using the "village idiot" clause.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    Two separate convictions plus other involvement with the police will be a tough nut to crack. Sounds like they are using the "village idiot" clause.
    Please explain.

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    That was a good read, thanks for the link Dr. Todd.

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    Ok, DrTodd and or TheQ, what would be my best bet to getting my CPL. Reapply and appeal if I get denied, wait at least a year, wait and see if SB-59 passes ? I really want it bad, if you can't tell.
    Last edited by casper; 02-26-2013 at 01:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    Ok, DrTodd and or TheQ, what would be my best bet to getting my CPL. Reapply and appeal if I get denied, wait at least a year, wait and see if SB-59 passes ? I really want it bad, if you can't tell.
    If you have missed a timeline, I would re-apply. IF I were then denied, I would appeal the denial and, if/when it gets to court, represent myself. You may not feel up to the fight, though, which I would understand.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Then I will try that. Thank you Sir.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    I need help with CPL.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    If you have missed a timeline, I would re-apply. IF I were then denied, I would appeal the denial and, if/when it gets to court, represent myself. You may not feel up to the fight, though, which I would understand.
    I would represent myself, but I have hundreds of hours of Michigan firearm law reading and case law under my belt.


    If you aren't familiar with the court process, laws, and relevant case law you might want to lawyer up. If you lawyer up, take him with you to any gun board hearing you have -- it may convince them not to screw with you if they see a lawyer in tow.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I would represent myself, but I have hundreds of hours of Michigan firearm law reading and case law under my belt.


    If you aren't familiar with the court process, laws, and relevant case law you might want to lawyer up. If you lawyer up, take him with you to any gun board hearing you have -- it may convince them not to screw with you if they see a lawyer in tow.
    When can you start ?

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I would represent myself, but I have hundreds of hours of Michigan firearm law reading and case law under my belt.


    If you aren't familiar with the court process, laws, and relevant case law you might want to lawyer up. If you lawyer up, take him with you to any gun board hearing you have -- it may convince them not to screw with you if they see a lawyer in tow.
    As would I... but I certainly don't begrudge anyone feeling that the task is better left to an attorney.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    When can you start ?
    He's not an attorney.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    He's not an attorney.
    But he did stay at a Holliday inn last night.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I would represent myself, but I have hundreds of hours of Michigan firearm law reading and case law under my belt.


    If you aren't familiar with the court process, laws, and relevant case law you might want to lawyer up. If you lawyer up, take him with you to any gun board hearing you have -- it may convince them not to screw with you if they see a lawyer in tow.
    3 grand for an appeals lawyer, that's hurts.

  22. #22
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    I need help with CPL.

    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    3 grand for an appeals lawyer, that's hurts.
    Ouch. Consider the Circuit Court filing fee is around $300 alone...

    Glad I'm equipped with the right knowledge, if I need it. $3,000 buys a lot of ammo.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    It's to bad that rights are only for the rich.
    Last edited by casper; 02-28-2013 at 05:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    3 grand for an appeals lawyer, that's hurts.
    Since your denial was in 12',the reasonable time wording of the law(I went thru this 06' to 09') would have to be shown in ciruit court,if you appealed there.
    I had to re-apply(another $105 app fee) in 09',retained a Pro-gun lawyer(NRA recommended) for $250,attended first board meeting(determined their paperwork was in error),was told to return to the board 30 days later,gave a speech and presented my OC history(media accounts) and Article 1 Sec. 6,MCL's etc.,and they gave me my permit.
    They had used the vague wording in the law(which allows them to "feel" you may be a danger),because any misdemeanor record I had was 14 years or more!
    You will most likely pay the $105 app fee,retain a Pro-gun lawyer to represent you($250+?) and make an educated speech(educate yourself on MI firearm law-MCL's) to the board! Been there done that! CARRY ON!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

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    I told the lawyer everything, yes everything, and he feels that I would win, but then he wouldn't say no, then expect me to hire him right ?

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