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Thread: How far can employers go?

  1. #1
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    How far can employers go?

    My employer has a no weapons policy and I respect that. Because I have a 35 mile commute I store my weapon in my vehicle locked and very secured. I have been informed that it is against company policy to have a weapon in my vehicle while on the clock. I have requested they change their policy, so far they are resisting change. Am I asking too much?

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    Regular Member PFC HALE's Avatar
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    How far can employers go?

    why should they even know whats in your vehicle if its securely locked up?

    not tryin to be smart but if they dont need to know then shouldnt there be no worry?
    HOPE FOR THE BEST, EXPECT THE WORST, PREPARE FOR WAR

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    Re: How far can employers go?

    Quote Originally Posted by PFC HALE View Post
    why should they even know whats in your vehicle if its securely locked up?

    not tryin to be smart but if they dont need to know then shouldnt there be no worry?
    I was spotted carrying on my lunch hour around town. I've been talked to about the policy. I've asked them to consider changing the policy. I don't think they know what to do with me but I know I am ruffling feathers because of all the office chatter going on.

    I am now parking off company property. It's been noticed but have not been confronted on. I guess we are in a "don't ask, don't tell" for now. Back when they first confronted me on it all I said was I didn't think they could legally ask me what was in my vehicle. I didn't confirm or deny anything. But it's obvious. Nothing has been said since. I'm just waiting now.

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    Regular Member PFC HALE's Avatar
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    How far can employers go?

    who is to say you had a friend drop your gun off to ya for lunch?
    HOPE FOR THE BEST, EXPECT THE WORST, PREPARE FOR WAR

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    Quote Originally Posted by VanillaBK View Post
    My employer has a no weapons policy and I respect that. Because I have a 35 mile commute I store my weapon in my vehicle locked and very secured. I have been informed that it is against company policy to have a weapon in my vehicle while on the clock. I have requested they change their policy, so far they are resisting change. Am I asking too much?

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    I recommend looking into your local laws regarding the matter, of which IMO you should already be familiar with if you are carrying a weapon.

    As an example in Oklahoma the law says this
    TITLE 21 § 1289.7a TRANSPORTING OR STORING FIREARMS IN LOCKED MOTOR VEHICLE ON PRIVATE PREMISES – PROHIBITION PROSCRIBED – LIABILITY ENFORCEMENT
    A. No person, property owner, tenant, employer, or business entity shall maintain, establish, or enforce any policy or rule that has the effect of prohibiting any person, except a convicted felon, from transporting and storing firearms or ammunition in a locked motor vehicle, or from transporting and storing firearms or ammunition locked in or locked to a motor vehicle on any property set aside for any motor vehicle.
    B. No person, property owner, tenant, employer, or business entity shall be liable in any civil action for occurrences which result from the storing of firearms or ammunition in a locked motor vehicle on any property set aside for any motor vehicle, unless the person, property owner, tenant, employer, or owner of the business entity commits a criminal act involving the use of the firearms or ammunition. The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to claims pursuant to the Workers’ Compensation Act.
    C. An individual may bring a civil action to enforce this section. If a plaintiff prevails in a civil action related to the personnel manual against a person, property owner, tenant, employer or business for a violation of this section, the court shall award actual damages, enjoin further violations of this section, and award court costs and attorney fees to the prevailing plaintiff.
    D. As used in this section, “motor vehicle” means any automobile, truck, minivan, sports utility vehicle, motorcycle, motor scooter, and any other vehicle required to be registered under the Oklahoma Vehicle License and Registration Act.
    It also says
    TITLE 21 § 1289.27 PROHIBITING FIREARM INQUIRY BY EMPLOYER
    A. It shall be unlawful for any private employer doing business in this state to ask any applicant for employment information about whether the applicant owns or possesses a firearm. Any private employer who violates the provisions of this section shall, upon conviction, be guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not more than One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00).
    B. All public employers and public officials within this state shall be prohibited from asking any applicant for employment information about whether the applicant owns or possesses a firearm. Any public employer or public official who violates the provisions of this subsection shall be deemed to be acting outside the scope of their employment and shall be barred from seeking statutory immunity from any exemption or provision of the Governmental Tort Claims Act.
    All that being said, not only is it important to be able to protect yourself with arms but to also protect yourself with knowledge of the laws regarding such.
    Stay safe and God bless.

    Everyone will hate you because of me.
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    Stand firm, and you will win life.
    (Luke 21:17-19 NIV)

    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    I think they can have rules regarding storage on their property. If fired for that violation you would probably win in court. However, my thinking is that you would be let go as the "company is moving in another direction and your services are no longer needed." which leaves no room for for that.

    Best to just let time pass and not stir the pot until it's forgotten.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    ^^this^^

    Keep a very very very low profile and keep parking off property. Say no more say no more. Like it never happened. You are (could be) seen as respecting their property rights by going to extra lengths to comply.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Re: How far can employers go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert318 View Post
    I recommend looking into your local laws regarding the matter, of which IMO you should already be familiar with if you are carrying a weapon.

    As an example in Oklahoma the law says this


    It also says


    All that being said, not only is it important to be able to protect yourself with arms but to also protect yourself with knowledge of the laws regarding such.
    Idaho doesn't have anything so specific as your state does unless I missed it.

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    Re: How far can employers go?

    Quote Originally Posted by PFC HALE View Post
    who is to say you had a friend drop your gun off to ya for lunch?
    Exactly! I do have an uncle living close by.

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    Re: How far can employers go?

    Quote Originally Posted by carracer View Post
    I think they can have rules regarding storage on their property. If fired for that violation you would probably win in court. However, my thinking is that you would be let go as the "company is moving in another direction and your services are no longer needed." which leaves no room for for that.

    Best to just let time pass and not stir the pot until it's forgotten.
    I've decided to CC on my lunch hour for now.

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    Re: How far can employers go?

    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    ^^this^^

    Keep a very very very low profile and keep parking off property. Say no more say no more. Like it never happened. You are (could be) seen as respecting their property rights by going to extra lengths to comply.
    My impression is they are going to change their policy. But until then I will not say a thing. Parking off property is a 30 yrd walk. No big deal.

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    Regular Member Robert318's Avatar
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    I have briefly read thru Idaho gun laws and didn't see anything protecting employers that create anti firearms policy's against storage in vehicles or anything reaffirming gun owners rights on storage either. So it looks to me to be one of those things where you have to pick your battles. Though I do respect employers rights and property owners rights but unless they have armed security that wont run and hide and or are willing to protect me with their own life's then my personal choice is to protect myself the best way I can which happens to be with a firearm.

    So that leads us to the decision do we risk losing a job that can be replaced or risk losing our lives that cant be replaced or a wallet that has our identity which also can be life threatening depending on what's in the wallet? Well that's an easy choice for me but that's something that has to be addressed individually depending on the situation.
    Stay safe and God bless.

    Everyone will hate you because of me.
    But not a hair of your head will perish.
    Stand firm, and you will win life.
    (Luke 21:17-19 NIV)

    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

    "The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them.",
    "No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms."Thomas Jefferson

  13. #13
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    I used to go to a range during lunch hour ... my employer had same policy ... I parked off their property & that was the end of that problem.

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    Re: How far can employers go?

    This has been a good discussion. I'm confident after hearing some input that I will not have any further problems. I hope not anyway.

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    VanillaBK,

    The following is purposed solely as informational for the Reader.
    The Reader is always encouraged to seek legal advice from a qualified legal professional (of which I'm not).


    The leaseholder of a property, e.g., your employer, can require any and all persons, including employees, to not have firearms on their property, as private property rights in Idaho trump individual "civil rights". Sorry, I'm being lazy and not gonna cite/quote Idaho Law in this aspect.

    Below is the only law in Idaho Code, Title 5, Chapter 3 (§5-341), which I could find regarding an employer or business and their policy of firearms being stored in a personal motor vehicle on their property.

    5-341. IMMUNITY OF EMPLOYERS ALLOWING EMPLOYEE FIREARM STORAGE. No action shall lie or be maintained for civil damages in any court of this state against an employer where the claim arises out of the policy of an employer to either specifically allow or not prohibit the lawful storage of firearms by employees in their personal motor vehicles on the employer's business premises.

    What this law qualifies is that an employer/business has immunity from civil damages (being sued) if they specifically allow and/or don't prohibit storage of a firearm in an employer's personal motor vehicle and that employee use/display/carry a firearm, either for self-defense or in the commission of a crime, when that firearm was "stored" in that employee's personal motor vehicle. This would necessarily include an employee who open or conceal carry's during lunch.

    Now, if the vehicle is owned by the employer/business, therefore not a personal motor vehicle, wherein a personal firearm is stored and then used in self-defense or a crime, then the employer/business can (theoretically) be held civilly liable.

    Now, in your case wherein your employer explicitly, in their policy, denies permission for an employee to store a firearm in the employee's personal vehicle, they have that right to have that policy. That policy also provides the employer immunity from civil damages.

    Many employers I've talked with are not aware of this law and are delighted to learn of it, though only a small few have changed or enacted policy authorizing employees to store their firearm in their personal motor vehicle.

    This law begs the satirical question: What if an employee takes a bike or horse (e.g., personal non-motor vehicle) to work?!!


    Some research on whether an employer has the right to search an employee's personal motor vehicle would best be done. Can an employer have in their policy that they reserve the right to search an employee's personal belongings (purse, handbag, coat) while on the premises? Or search an employee's personal motor vehicle?

    My personal non-legal opinion is that, no, an employer does not have the right to search an employee's personal belongings simply because the employer wants to.

    However, any person in Idaho can lawfully arrest another person. Further, the person doing the arrest has the right to remove any offensive weapons from the person being arrested (see Title 19, Chapter 6, specifically §19-613, at http://legislature.idaho.gov/idstat/Title19/T19CH6.htm)

    What I'm saying is that an employer (person, not business) can arrest an employee (or other person) and theoretically "search" that person, including handbags for "offensive weapons about that person" to then remove them. The phrase "about that person" means "within the reach of". If the employee is not "about"/near their vehicle, my personal non-legal opinion is that the employer can not search the vehicle. The employer would best leave it up to law authorities to search other items, e.g., vehicles, belonging to the employee.

    Now, if an employer arrests an employee, the employer had best have solid evidence that brings about a reasonable charge resulting in a solid conviction. What I am saying is that (my personal non-legal opinion is that) an employer had best not "arrest" an employee just to search the employee's person and/or vehicle for "an offensive weapon". Because, if no charges are brought, then the employee has (technically) not committed a crime and, if the employee has suffered civilly (e.g., no employment = no income), the employee can then civilly sue the employer for false arrest or other civil violations.

    So, I've spent alot of time writing all this information out for you. As you can see, it can become very complicated very quickly.

    Thus, I concur with others in that you should park off-property.

    Further, when on your personal time off, avoid carrying while going into your employer's place of business (should they be a bank, restaurant, etc.). Finally, if your car is parked off or on property and is broken in and things (e.g., firearm) stolen, your employer is generally immune (not civilly liable) from your personal losses.

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    Last edited by Grapeshot; 12-07-2013 at 10:44 PM. Reason: rule 19

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    CarryTheTruth,
    I appreciate you taking the time to go into such detail. I struggle with my employer having the right to tell me what I cannot have in my personal vehicle. I will continue to park off company property. I have become silent on the job regarding this policy or my practices.
    Last edited by VanillaBK; 03-08-2013 at 06:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VanillaBK View Post
    CarryTheTruth,
    I appreciate you taking the time to go into such detail. I struggle with my employer having the right to tell me what I cannot have in my personal vehicle. I will continue to park off company property. I have become silent on the job regarding this policy or my practices.
    Smart to keep those lips closed. And with employers like that, I find new ones ... at-will cuts both ways

  18. #18
    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Smart to keep those lips closed. And with employers like that, I find new ones ... at-will cuts both ways
    And that "nice to give" and "traditional" "two weeks notice".....nope.....at will negates any such need, particularly if you already have teh next job lined up. The ONLY reason in such a situation to give two weeks notice would be if you needed a referral from the prior employer. If you have the next job secured prior to giving your "won't be in tomorrow, or any more" notice, then you don't need the referral.

    Park off their property and they have no say in what's in your vehicle. Make a big deal of it however and they might use "at will" from their perspective.....which is not good for your personal finanical health.
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
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    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

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