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Thread: Waterford

  1. #1
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Waterford

    From an OCer
    "I dropped off a registration in Waterford today, and noticed a problem. There was a sign requiring approval of all carried firearms by the desk sgt. This is in violation of 1102, "regulate in any other manner" part of preemption. I was wondering if you could start a thread on OCDO or MOC about this. Waterford has a long record of making up the rules as they go, and this should be brought to light. Link to pic below.
    http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps518d77ec.jpg
    When I called to question the sign, the officer asked me what I wanted him do do about it. I replied that he should take it down, as it is not in compliance with state law. He replied snarkingly, "Duly Noted" and hung up."

    Whether you like the OCer is not really the point. a local govt seems to be messing with peoples rights.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  2. #2
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Waterford

    If I had legitimate business there, I'd just ignore the sign a d have my Qik running.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  3. #3
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    If I had legitimate business there, I'd just ignore the sign a d have my Qik running.
    +1. Raggs, signs that are in violation of preemption are unenforceable. The problem is, they (like illegal ordinances) often mislead police officers and the public. A misled police officer may think he is supposed to enforce the sign. So, your friend should have video/audio recording devices running when he is there for legitimate business. Also, if discussion to rectify the officer's understanding of the law fails, don't argue. Just ask him to go up the chain and call his supervisor or prosecutor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    Waterford has a long record of making up the rules as they go, and this should be brought to light.
    Some communication steps your friend can take about the illegal sign, how misleading it is, and requesting it be taken down, in order of escalation (reference prior communication and unsatisfactory results, as he goes):
    1)Email the police chief (reference the officer saying "Duly noted" with an insincere tone, and note that the sign is still up).
    2)Email the prosecutor.
    3)Email the mayor and city council.
    4)Appear in person at city council meetings (put the call out here for others to go with him, too).

    I'm next to Waterford, in W. Bloomfield, and I'm down with step 4 if we get to it.
    Last edited by DanM; 03-01-2013 at 08:09 AM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

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    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  4. #4
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    If it's the same department I have been in, they claim that since they have a tunnel to the jail, they are a jail and can prohibit firearms. Event though the doors leading in and out of the tunnel are locked.

    I'm just not sure it's the same department I had a meeting at when discussing OC in one of the waterford schools.
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Last I heard, the Waterford PD has a screwy system where they promote based on time on the job, rather than merit. This I heard from a cop from another department, and he had nothing good to say about the chief, and as we have seen elsewhere with some rather colorful incidents, a bad chief will make the whole department screwed up.

    So with that said, it would come as little surprise to me if their department couldn't care less about following the law, since it may very well be they are thoroughly unafraid of being caught red handed violating rights. Violating preemption is something very few cops would be too concerned with anyway, since there really aren't any prescribed penalties for doing so, unless you go to federal color of law statutes, and I'd have a very hard time believing that would go anywhere.

  6. #6
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    If it's the same department I have been in, they claim that since they have a tunnel to the jail, they are a jail and can prohibit firearms. Event though the doors leading in and out of the tunnel are locked.

    I'm just not sure it's the same department I had a meeting at when discussing OC in one of the waterford schools.
    Hey, I lived next to a bank once & the sidewalks connected to one another. Does this mean all the money inside was really mine?
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  7. #7
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    From an OCer
    "I dropped off a registration in Waterford today, and noticed a problem. There was a sign requiring approval of all carried firearms by the desk sgt. This is in violation of 1102, "regulate in any other manner" part of preemption. I was wondering if you could start a thread on OCDO or MOC about this. Waterford has a long record of making up the rules as they go, and this should be brought to light. Link to pic below.
    http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps518d77ec.jpg
    When I called to question the sign, the officer asked me what I wanted him do do about it. I replied that he should take it down, as it is not in compliance with state law. He replied snarkingly, "Duly Noted" and hung up."

    Whether you like the OCer is not really the point. a local govt seems to be messing with peoples rights.

    How did you happen to bump into an OCer from clear across the state?

    And, is there anything we could derive from the fact that the link is to one of stainless1911's personal pictures?

    Since stainless has already crapped in the nest, he shouldn't compare his results with those of a 'normal' OCer.
    Last edited by Shadow Bear; 03-03-2013 at 12:33 PM.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  8. #8
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    How did you happen to bump into an OCer from clear across the state?

    And, is there anything we could derive from the fact that the link is to one of stainless1911's personal pictures?

    Since stainless has already crapped in the nest, he shouldn't compare his results with those of a 'normal' OCer.
    is the sign legal? just because someone you and most others don't like posts the image does not make it any less real.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  9. #9
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Re: Waterford

    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    is the sign legal? just because someone you and most others don't like posts the image does not make it any less real.
    No it is not legal. However some people always have more problems exercising rights then everyone else because they go around poking the bear for no good reason. Not a joke about a mod...... now with that said they then have little to no traction with their local officials to correct these types of issues as they are seen as nuts. Right or wrong perception is important.

    Sent from my LG-E970 using Tapatalk 2
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  10. #10
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    No it is not legal. However some people always have more problems exercising rights then everyone else because they go around poking the bear for no good reason. Not a joke about a mod...... now with that said they then have little to no traction with their local officials to correct these types of issues as they are seen as nuts. Right or wrong perception is important.

    Sent from my LG-E970 using Tapatalk 2
    It could be that he recognizes this, and is in fact reaching out to OCDO to obtain help from someone with better... say... rapport?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    From an OCer
    "I dropped off a registration in Waterford today, and noticed a problem. There was a sign requiring approval of all carried firearms by the desk sgt. This is in violation of 1102, "regulate in any other manner" part of preemption. I was wondering if you could start a thread on OCDO or MOC about this. Waterford has a long record of making up the rules as they go, and this should be brought to light. Link to pic below.
    http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps518d77ec.jpg
    When I called to question the sign, the officer asked me what I wanted him do do about it. I replied that he should take it down, as it is not in compliance with state law. He replied snarkingly, "Duly Noted" and hung up."

    Whether you like the OCer is not really the point. a local govt seems to be messing with peoples rights.
    Welcome to the form stainless1911.

  12. #12
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by budlight View Post
    Welcome to the form stainless1911.
    Ease up- I can attest that he's not stainless.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  13. #13
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Waterford

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    Ease up- I can attest that he's not stainless.
    Ditto. He and I don't always see eye to eye, but he's not stainless.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Ditto. He and I don't always see eye to eye, but he's not stainless.
    No, but we are always honest about it.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  15. #15
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    I find it astonishingly humorous that one person by the internet nickname of Stainless1911 can generate so much of a following that even after he is gone his name is mentioned over and over.... even to the point of accusing those new to the forum of being yet another iteration of Stainless...

    Say what you will folks but it is painfully, or perhaps gut bustingly humorously funny, that Stainless1911 has left an indelible mark upon this forum....

    But then the only reason that indelible mark is upon this forum is certain folks won't let their urinating contest with Stainless1911 go.....

    Which says much more about those who can't let it go than it says about Stainless1911...........
    Last edited by Bikenut; 03-05-2013 at 03:51 PM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  16. #16
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Waterford

    I have a good idea - I think? Just as people have swear jars we should have a st***less jar so to speak. Whenever someone writes his name in a post they would agree to pay a $50 fee that goes to the MOC vs CADL fund. I bet we could fund the case work in a couple of months.
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  17. #17
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: Waterford

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    I find it astonishingly humorous that one person by the internet nickname of Stainless1911 can generate so much of a following that even after he is gone his name is mentioned over and over.... even to the point of accusing those new to the forum of being yet another iteration of Stainless...

    Say what you will folks but it is painfully, or perhaps gut bustingly humorously funny, that Stainless1911 has left an indelible mark upon this forum....

    But then the only reason that indelible mark is upon this forum is certain folks won't let their urinating contest with Stainless1911 go.....

    Which says much more about those who can't let it go than it says about Stainless1911...........
    I agree 100%. The fact that posts were deleted because someone MAY have been an attempt by one person to maintain his presence on here does not show the best side of OCDO. We are our own worst enemies.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Ditto. He and I don't always see eye to eye, but he's not stainless.
    Sorry for the wrong assumption! My bad. Please accept my apologies RAGGS.
    Last edited by budlight; 03-05-2013 at 09:40 PM.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by budlight View Post
    Sorry for the wrong assumption! My bad. Please accept my apologies RAGGS.
    no apologies needed
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

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