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VA law with church that runs schools ? how to write to AG?

ocholsteroc

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http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.1 § 18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited.

B. If any person possesses any firearm designed or intended to expel a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material while such person is upon (i) any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (ii) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (iii) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.


If you go to a church and don't know they run a school could they charge you with gun on school grounds or they can't because of this wording?
 

roscoe13

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johnfenter

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Not so sure...

Good luck with that. There is absolutely NO ambiguity with the law as it's currently written....

Roscoe

The ambiguity exists in the definition of "grounds". For example, at my church, the Pre thru K school has a separate wing of the parish hall and the doors are marked and locked; they also have a fenced in playground. The rest of the parish hall and grounds is NOT part of the school and is used for other purposes during the day; the grounds directly outside the playground fence is the GRAVEYARD. We need a defining opinion on this; if the church grounds are synonymous with school grounds, and every building on those grounds is a "school", then for that church, 18.2-283 essentially has no meaning.
 

TFred

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If you go to a church and don't know they run a school could they charge you with gun on school grounds or they can't because of this wording?
There is no question to be answered here. Of course they can charge you. LEOs are notorious for charging people with crimes incorrectly or even crimes that are not on the books.

The question you want to ask is "can one be convicted of..."

TFred
 

vt357

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There is no question to be answered here. Of course they can charge you. LEOs are notorious for charging people with crimes incorrectly or even crimes that are not on the books.

The question you want to ask is "can one be convicted of..."

TFred

TFRed, remember this post from 4 years ago? This is a story of a bad guy who committed a serious crime in Hopewell, VA. The school zone was an add on charge. This is not about a law abiding citizen getting arrested for carrying at a church that also happens to have a school meet there during the week. But the same principle would apply in that case.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?52882

At trial, appellant moved to strike the Commonwealth's evidence, arguing that, at the time of the shooting, the premises leased by the LEAD Center did not constitute "school property" within the meaning of Code § 18.2-280(C) because, based on the terms of the lease, the premises reverted from school property to church property at 6:00 p.m. on Friday, August 25, 2006, and did not revert back to school property until 7:00 a.m. the following Monday morning. The Commonwealth countered that nothing in the statute required that the school be in session at the time of the discharge for the statute to apply. Finding the premises constituted school property "for the purposes of the statute," the trial court denied appellant's motion and convicted him under Code § 18.2-280(C).

...

Additionally, the adoption of appellant's position that the premises constituted "school property" under the statute only during those times the LEAD Center was contractually permitted to use the premises would result in significant enforcement problems. For one thing, it would require law enforcement personnel to know or be able to easily determine the precise contractual terms of the schools operating in their jurisdiction. And, in the case of schools like the LEAD Center, which was explicitly permitted to use the premises after hours with the church's permission, law enforcement personnel would be required to keep track of when such permission was granted in order to know whether a particular firearm discharge was prohibited under Code § 18.2-280(C).
 

user

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Yes, but can they charge you if you do not know if its a school? theres no signs/info telling you theres a school in church. ???? :uhoh:

Tfred's right. However, there is a distinction between crimes "malum in se", evil in and of themselves, in which one ought to know what's right and wrong, and crimes that are "malum prohibitum", crimes that are defined as such and only because they are defined as such. In the latter case, it doesn't matter whether you have knowledge or not, because it's a merely prohibitory regulation. (E.g., violation of a traffic sign is malum prohibitum; it doesn't matter whether you actually saw the sign or not.)

If the statute uses words like, "intentionally", "willfully", or "knowingly", then it's a "specific intent" offense, and the "mens rea" or "criminal intent" is part of the criminal offense and must be proved. Otherwise, it's a "general intent" offense, so the crime consists in performing the act, whether or not you know it's a crime.

So in my opinion, you don't have a chance with that "I didn't know there was a school there" defense. However, in my opinion, the "school" is that part which is actually designated as such; the building and grounds are those of the church, not the school, unless so characterized. But here's a wrinkle: on the day for services, lots of congregations have religious instruction, whether designated as "Sunday school" or what. That's school, too.
 

Numenor

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Aug 20, 2012
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Richmond, VA
Hmmm... I think I might have to say "Oops" in this case. Hadn't thought about that one section of the law when regarding my church. Well that's irritating, but thanks for pointing it out. :(
 
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