Results 1 to 24 of 24

Thread: Bad Behavior Hurts Everyone

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    57

    Bad Behavior Hurts Everyone

    I was reading a thread in another forum about a Chik Fil A store that recently added a "no weapons" sign to its doors. When contacted the franchise owner related that it was because an OCer had recently been asked to leave the premises and refused to do so. They decided to post the place to avoid future conflicts. (http://www.carolinashootersclub.com/...ns-on-property). I sometimes see posts about OCer's having confrotational encounters with store owners and managers... comments such as "they old lady's eyes bugged out when she spotted my gun," "the old gun almost swallowed his dentures," and other examples of creating shock. That's not the goal people. We want people to go unnoticed when carrying, to be polite, good ambassadors for the 2nd A.

    Now I'm sure someone will argue that the place was obviously anti-OC anyway so it's no big loss. It is a step backwards for 2A rights period... an erosion of locations where gun owners may exercise their rights isn't good for anyone. Truth be told, the OCer that refused to leave when asked was breaking the law... trespass. When asked to leave just leave. Do not make a scene, do not refuse, just take your business elsewhere.
    Last edited by NCBobD; 03-02-2013 at 06:48 AM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member 62 Caddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    82
    +1, everyone should be an ambassador for the cause.

  3. #3
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Valid points about trespass, confrontation, and step backwards.

    However, lets not give too much credit to the veracity of a business that doesn't respect human beings enough to let them defend themselves.

    And, keep in mind that as OC grows, you're going to have people who are not forum members here OCing. I met one the other day.

    And, keep in mind that as OC grows, you're going to have people who are not members of Emily Post's Good Manners Club. That's one of the aspects of freedom--people can do what they want, and some of them are actually going to do it. Its going to come up again and again that someone does not take the high road.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  4. #4
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    12,278
    "He has some pretty wild ideas that the kid will "come and shoot the place up" etc, but he has personally never talked to him. He did say that he would welcome a solution to it, but when I suggested he change the sign to exclude concealed he wasn't interested. "

    Sounds to me like the manager is a few bricks short of a load, we only have hearsay on the opinion and hearsay of yet another. Honestly I think the story is made up to try to excuse the sign and not lose business. It happens that there are dufus OCing but it is very rare, most OCers understand to leave politely though ask for a refund for the funds wasted on doing business with a closet anti.

    Please refrain from throwing hearsay upon hearsay stories, it just is not polite.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 03-02-2013 at 12:25 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Gastonia, NC
    Posts
    27
    I have been seeing lots of videos on youtube and elsewhere of people, in my opinion, making a back name for OCers by being strait up crap heads to police. The cases I am speaking of are cases where the officer was very polite and just curious do to the fact that they do not see that many people OCing. I do not understand this! I don't see a reason to be a dick unless the officer or questioning individual is a dick first; but even if they are being confrontational you can exercise your rights while taking the moral high road. Which I think would be much more beneficial to how others view OCers. If you make a scene then all you do is help support the liberal view of all 2A supports are crazy, rude, dangerous, etc.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Georgia, USA
    Posts
    3,915
    A polite rapist is still a rapist. A bank robber who says, "Pretty please, all the money in the bag" is a bank robber still.

    OC may be mysterious, unusual, and even upsetting for some of the public, but so is a black man wearing a tutu and eating a ham sandwich. Does that give authority to Officer Friendly to detain that man and "find out who he is"?


    I've seen the same videos, and in every one that the OC'er was "being a dick" in it was the officer attempting to exert authority over someone he lacked authority to detain and question. Such behavior by officers cannot, should not, and must not be tolerated. Lacking any arguable suspicion of a particular law being broken, Officer Friendly has no more authority to detain me than the busybody next door.

  7. #7
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    12,278
    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    A polite rapist is still a rapist. A bank robber who says, "Pretty please, all the money in the bag" is a bank robber still.

    OC may be mysterious, unusual, and even upsetting for some of the public, but so is a black man wearing a tutu and eating a ham sandwich. Does that give authority to Officer Friendly to detain that man and "find out who he is"?


    I've seen the same videos, and in every one that the OC'er was "being a dick" in it was the officer attempting to exert authority over someone he lacked authority to detain and question. Such behavior by officers cannot, should not, and must not be tolerated. Lacking any arguable suspicion of a particular law being broken, Officer Friendly has no more authority to detain me than the busybody next door.
    And let's not forget that the camera makes officer friendly~~~friendly. We have also seen how some officers act when they do not know they are on candid camera. The proper procedure for a lawful citizen conducting themselves legally is to leave them alone.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  8. #8
    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Concord, NC
    Posts
    1,790
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    And let's not forget that the camera makes officer friendly~~~friendly. We have also seen how some officers act when they do not know they are on candid camera. The proper procedure for a lawful citizen conducting themselves legally is to leave them alone.
    +1
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Gastonia, NC
    Posts
    27
    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    A polite rapist is still a rapist. A bank robber who says, "Pretty please, all the money in the bag" is a bank robber still.
    Yes but a rapist and a bank robber are already breaking the law so they do not apply to this scenario. Im not saying give up your rights or be submissive; Im just saying you don't have to be rude about it. And when you are a dick head others around will see you being a dick head and help further support stereotypes I mentioned before. Simply know your rights, exercise them, and be polite.

  10. #10
    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Concord, NC
    Posts
    1,790
    Quote Originally Posted by USMCRET. View Post
    I have been seeing lots of videos on youtube and elsewhere of people, in my opinion, making a back name for OCers by being strait up crap heads to police. The cases I am speaking of are cases where the officer was very polite and just curious do to the fact that they do not see that many people OCing. I do not understand this! I don't see a reason to be a dick unless the officer or questioning individual is a dick first; but even if they are being confrontational you can exercise your rights while taking the moral high road. Which I think would be much more beneficial to how others view OCers. If you make a scene then all you do is help support the liberal view of all 2A supports are crazy, rude, dangerous, etc.

    Do you have some suggestions for people to protect their rights and be polite to the police, particularly LEOs that are very persistent? There are a lot of people that object on a fundamental level to being forced to ID themselves on request when not absolutely required to do so.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    Quote Originally Posted by carolina guy View Post
    Do you have some suggestions for people to protect their rights and be polite to the police, particularly LEOs that are very persistent? There are a lot of people that object on a fundamental level to being forced to ID themselves on request when not absolutely required to do so.
    How about "Officer, I do not believe I am required by law to ID myself/give you an identification document and therfore respectfully decline to do so."

    If the cop is just fishing he can either carry out a threat to arrrest you or he can stop fishing. My very limited experience (n=2) is that saying that every time the cop asks for/demands ID, works well. YMMV.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    Going back to the OP's point -

    there is very little you can do (or that I would recommend you do) at the time you are asked to leave, except comply with the request. And trying to get the name of the person telling you to leave. On a few occassions I have asked where the person asking me to leave would like me to leave my grocery cary ("buggy" to some of you). When offered the iopportunity to take what I had in the cart and check out, I declined, saying I was intent on complying with the order to leave. At that point I just walked off (quitely, calmly, not muttering under my breath).

    Contacting the person who asked you to leave, or someone higher in the manegerial chain, later that day or the next business day, is recommended. Explain briefly the circumstances and that you complied with the instruction to leave. Ask if you would be allowed to come and discuss the event, now that everything has calmed down. This, I find, is especially helpful when being asked to leave is the result of someone making a complaint that you are armed. It allows you to explain that you did nothing by word or deed to cause the person to perceive a threat, and that you should not be made responsible for the feelings of other people who claim to have beenfrightened - especially those who claim they are frightened you might do "something". Ask if there is security video showing the event that they might review. If so, ask them if they intend to review it. Ask them if the person who asked you to leave reported that you did so calmly, peaceably, and without argument.

    While the OP did not mention it, I want to remind folks because it is often complained of -

    private property owners cannot infringe on your rights. Only the government can do that.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  13. #13
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Georgia, USA
    Posts
    3,915
    Quote Originally Posted by USMCRET. View Post
    Yes but a rapist and a bank robber are already breaking the law so they do not apply to this scenario. Im not saying give up your rights or be submissive; Im just saying you don't have to be rude about it. And when you are a dick head others around will see you being a dick head and help further support stereotypes I mentioned before. Simply know your rights, exercise them, and be polite.
    USMCRET, I fear you missed the point of my post, it is not that one is a criminal and the other is not (as neither is until an act is committed), it is that "being polite" while doing wrong is Still doing wrong.


    When Joe Schmuckatelli asks "Pardon, kind sir, but prithee why are you carrying a firearm?", if he doesn't get an answer he simply figures you have as much right not to answer as he does to ask.
    The situation is different when Officer Friendly is using the color of his office to inquire, "Hey, bud, what's wid da gat?" He expects an answer as befits his position. The fact that his position doesn't demand that an answer be made is not likely to be on his mind.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 03-18-2013 at 09:52 PM.

  14. #14
    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Concord, NC
    Posts
    1,790
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Going back to the OP's point -

    there is very little you can do (or that I would recommend you do) at the time you are asked to leave, except comply with the request. And trying to get the name of the person telling you to leave. On a few occassions I have asked where the person asking me to leave would like me to leave my grocery cary ("buggy" to some of you). When offered the iopportunity to take what I had in the cart and check out, I declined, saying I was intent on complying with the order to leave. At that point I just walked off (quitely, calmly, not muttering under my breath).

    Contacting the person who asked you to leave, or someone higher in the manegerial chain, later that day or the next business day, is recommended. Explain briefly the circumstances and that you complied with the instruction to leave. Ask if you would be allowed to come and discuss the event, now that everything has calmed down. This, I find, is especially helpful when being asked to leave is the result of someone making a complaint that you are armed. It allows you to explain that you did nothing by word or deed to cause the person to perceive a threat, and that you should not be made responsible for the feelings of other people who claim to have beenfrightened - especially those who claim they are frightened you might do "something". Ask if there is security video showing the event that they might review. If so, ask them if they intend to review it. Ask them if the person who asked you to leave reported that you did so calmly, peaceably, and without argument.

    While the OP did not mention it, I want to remind folks because it is often complained of -

    private property owners cannot infringe on your rights. Only the government can do that.

    stay safe.
    +1
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

  15. #15
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    And let's not forget that the camera makes officer friendly~~~friendly. .
    Either that or a complete psycho ....

  16. #16
    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Logan, OH
    Posts
    1,028
    In Columbus, Ohio, we have a Wendy's restaurant (just one) that posted after an OC'er got mouthy when asked to leave.

    Sad face.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Gastonia, NC
    Posts
    27
    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    USMCRET, I fear you missed the point of my post, it is not that one is a criminal and the other is not (as neither is until an act is committed), it is that "being polite" while doing wrong is Still doing wrong.
    I understand your point, Im not saying that the officer is right, however Im saying you can choose to be the bigger man or woman and be polite. People will walk by and see that you are being respectful and kind and that the officer is the one being the a**hole.

  18. #18
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,066
    Quote Originally Posted by USMCRET. View Post
    I understand your point, Im not saying that the officer is right, however Im saying you can choose to be the bigger man or woman and be polite. People will walk by and see that you are being respectful and kind and that the officer is the one being the a**hole.
    Problem is, every time I see one of those videos where the OC'r is being a "dick" he's not. Apparently just by refusing to answer questions or show ID you're a dick.
    Last edited by sharkey; 03-19-2013 at 04:04 AM. Reason: spelling
    "Public opinion and votes have nothing to do with this. The challenge of the Court is not what they're going to do with votes. The challenge-- of the Court is are they going to protect people's rights." - Al Sharpton


  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Gastonia, NC
    Posts
    27
    .........All Im saying is be polite!!! Im not saying anyone is a dick just because they do not want to share their info with the cops.

  20. #20
    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Concord, NC
    Posts
    1,790
    Quote Originally Posted by USMCRET. View Post
    .........All Im saying is be polite!!! Im not saying anyone is a dick just because they do not want to share their info with the cops.
    As long as "being a dick" is not like "beauty"...being that it is in the eye of the beholder.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Georgia, USA
    Posts
    3,915
    Personally, I'd be rather appreciative if Officer Friendly were more polite and Minded His Own Fracking Business and didn't bother me in the first place. Politeness begins at home, right?

    Ask me what I'm carrying and I'll chew your ear off on the pro's and con's of my choice.

    Ask me if I have a license and if you can see it and you're implying that I'm engaging in illegal behavior. And I'll react accordingly.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 03-19-2013 at 09:57 AM.

  22. #22
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    12,278
    I have spent enough years on this rock, that I have earned the right to be a dick when when necessary. I have been called much worse than that, I can live with it.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  23. #23
    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Logan, OH
    Posts
    1,028
    And then there was the open carrier (Michael Porchien, Youngtown, OH) who decided to be polite and cooperative when he was stopped, and has it on video (link below)...that is, until the dick cop decides to take his camera (phone).

    The cop then has to call his Lt. to help generate some kind of charge for the stop (we have the audio).

    They decide that the guy's shirt was covering the openly carried folding knife clipped to his belt.

    Charged with Carrying a Concealed Weapon - Knife, while openly carrying a loaded firearm.

    (charges dismissed, case dismissed, civil suit being prepared)

    I'll be nice to the cops until they make a request that is not supported by the laws of the state.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOSocHUR2IE
    Last edited by MyWifeSaidYes; 03-19-2013 at 05:03 PM.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

  24. #24
    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Concord, NC
    Posts
    1,790
    I think it is fair to be polite with a LEO until the LEO no longer respects your polite requests to disengage.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •