Bad Behavior Hurts Everyone

NCBobD · Mar 2, 2013

I was reading a thread in another forum about a Chik Fil A store that recently added a "no weapons" sign to its doors. When contacted the franchise owner related that it was because an OCer had recently been asked to leave the premises and refused to do so. They decided to post the place to avoid future conflicts. (http://www.carolinashootersclub.com/threads/130108-Chick-Fil-A-No-weapons-on-property). I sometimes see posts about OCer's having confrotational encounters with store owners and managers... comments such as "they old lady's eyes bugged out when she spotted my gun," "the old gun almost swallowed his dentures," and other examples of creating shock. That's not the goal people. We want people to go unnoticed when carrying, to be polite, good ambassadors for the 2nd A.

Now I'm sure someone will argue that the place was obviously anti-OC anyway so it's no big loss. It is a step backwards for 2A rights period... an erosion of locations where gun owners may exercise their rights isn't good for anyone. Truth be told, the OCer that refused to leave when asked was breaking the law... trespass. When asked to leave just leave. Do not make a scene, do not refuse, just take your business elsewhere.

62 Caddy · Mar 2, 2013

+1, everyone should be an ambassador for the cause.

Citizen · Mar 2, 2013

Valid points about trespass, confrontation, and step backwards.

However, lets not give too much credit to the veracity of a business that doesn't respect human beings enough to let them defend themselves.

And, keep in mind that as OC grows, you're going to have people who are not forum members here OCing. I met one the other day.

And, keep in mind that as OC grows, you're going to have people who are not members of Emily Post's Good Manners Club. That's one of the aspects of freedom--people can do what they want, and some of them are actually going to do it. Its going to come up again and again that someone does not take the high road.

WalkingWolf · Mar 2, 2013

"He has some pretty wild ideas that the kid will "come and shoot the place up" etc, but he has personally never talked to him. He did say that he would welcome a solution to it, but when I suggested he change the sign to exclude concealed he wasn't interested. "

Sounds to me like the manager is a few bricks short of a load, we only have hearsay on the opinion and hearsay of yet another. Honestly I think the story is made up to try to excuse the sign and not lose business. It happens that there are dufus OCing but it is very rare, most OCers understand to leave politely though ask for a refund for the funds wasted on doing business with a closet anti.

Please refrain from throwing hearsay upon hearsay stories, it just is not polite.

USMCRET. · Mar 18, 2013

I have been seeing lots of videos on youtube and elsewhere of people, in my opinion, making a back name for OCers by being strait up crap heads to police. The cases I am speaking of are cases where the officer was very polite and just curious do to the fact that they do not see that many people OCing. I do not understand this! I don't see a reason to be a dick unless the officer or questioning individual is a dick first; but even if they are being confrontational you can exercise your rights while taking the moral high road. Which I think would be much more beneficial to how others view OCers. If you make a scene then all you do is help support the liberal view of all 2A supports are crazy, rude, dangerous, etc.

Fallschirjmäger · Mar 18, 2013

A polite rapist is still a rapist. A bank robber who says, "Pretty please, all the money in the bag" is a bank robber still.

OC may be mysterious, unusual, and even upsetting for some of the public, but so is a black man wearing a tutu and eating a ham sandwich. Does that give authority to Officer Friendly to detain that man and "find out who he is"?

I've seen the same videos, and in every one that the OC'er was "being a dick" in it was the officer attempting to exert authority over someone he lacked authority to detain and question. Such behavior by officers cannot, should not, and must not be tolerated. Lacking any arguable suspicion of a particular law being broken, Officer Friendly has no more authority to detain me than the busybody next door.

WalkingWolf · Mar 18, 2013

Fallschirmjäger said:
A polite rapist is still a rapist. A bank robber who says, "Pretty please, all the money in the bag" is a bank robber still.

OC may be mysterious, unusual, and even upsetting for some of the public, but so is a black man wearing a tutu and eating a ham sandwich. Does that give authority to Officer Friendly to detain that man and "find out who he is"?

I've seen the same videos, and in every one that the OC'er was "being a dick" in it was the officer attempting to exert authority over someone he lacked authority to detain and question. Such behavior by officers cannot, should not, and must not be tolerated. Lacking any arguable suspicion of a particular law being broken, Officer Friendly has no more authority to detain me than the busybody next door.

And let's not forget that the camera makes officer friendly~~~friendly. We have also seen how some officers act when they do not know they are on candid camera. The proper procedure for a lawful citizen conducting themselves legally is to leave them alone.

carolina guy · Mar 18, 2013

WalkingWolf said:
And let's not forget that the camera makes officer friendly~~~friendly. We have also seen how some officers act when they do not know they are on candid camera. The proper procedure for a lawful citizen conducting themselves legally is to leave them alone.

+1

USMCRET. · Mar 18, 2013

Fallschirmjäger said:
A polite rapist is still a rapist. A bank robber who says, "Pretty please, all the money in the bag" is a bank robber still.

Yes but a rapist and a bank robber are already breaking the law so they do not apply to this scenario. Im not saying give up your rights or be submissive; Im just saying you don't have to be rude about it. And when you are a dick head others around will see you being a dick head and help further support stereotypes I mentioned before. Simply know your rights, exercise them, and be polite.

carolina guy · Mar 18, 2013

USMCRET. said:
I have been seeing lots of videos on youtube and elsewhere of people, in my opinion, making a back name for OCers by being strait up crap heads to police. The cases I am speaking of are cases where the officer was very polite and just curious do to the fact that they do not see that many people OCing. I do not understand this! I don't see a reason to be a dick unless the officer or questioning individual is a dick first; but even if they are being confrontational you can exercise your rights while taking the moral high road. Which I think would be much more beneficial to how others view OCers. If you make a scene then all you do is help support the liberal view of all 2A supports are crazy, rude, dangerous, etc.

Do you have some suggestions for people to protect their rights and be polite to the police, particularly LEOs that are very persistent? There are a lot of people that object on a fundamental level to being forced to ID themselves on request when not absolutely required to do so.

skidmark · Mar 18, 2013

carolina guy said:
Do you have some suggestions for people to protect their rights and be polite to the police, particularly LEOs that are very persistent? There are a lot of people that object on a fundamental level to being forced to ID themselves on request when not absolutely required to do so.

How about "Officer, I do not believe I am required by law to ID myself/give you an identification document and therfore respectfully decline to do so."

If the cop is just fishing he can either carry out a threat to arrrest you or he can stop fishing. My very limited experience (n=2) is that saying that every time the cop asks for/demands ID, works well. YMMV.

stay safe.

skidmark · Mar 18, 2013

Going back to the OP's point -

there is very little you can do (or that I would recommend you do) at the time you are asked to leave, except comply with the request. And trying to get the name of the person telling you to leave. On a few occassions I have asked where the person asking me to leave would like me to leave my grocery cary ("buggy" to some of you). When offered the iopportunity to take what I had in the cart and check out, I declined, saying I was intent on complying with the order to leave. At that point I just walked off (quitely, calmly, not muttering under my breath).

Contacting the person who asked you to leave, or someone higher in the manegerial chain, later that day or the next business day, is recommended. Explain briefly the circumstances and that you complied with the instruction to leave. Ask if you would be allowed to come and discuss the event, now that everything has calmed down. This, I find, is especially helpful when being asked to leave is the result of someone making a complaint that you are armed. It allows you to explain that you did nothing by word or deed to cause the person to perceive a threat, and that you should not be made responsible for the feelings of other people who claim to have beenfrightened - especially those who claim they are frightened you might do "something". Ask if there is security video showing the event that they might review. If so, ask them if they intend to review it. Ask them if the person who asked you to leave reported that you did so calmly, peaceably, and without argument.

While the OP did not mention it, I want to remind folks because it is often complained of -

private property owners cannot infringe on your rights. Only the government can do that.

stay safe.

Fallschirjmäger · Mar 18, 2013

USMCRET. said:
Yes but a rapist and a bank robber are already breaking the law so they do not apply to this scenario. Im not saying give up your rights or be submissive; Im just saying you don't have to be rude about it. And when you are a dick head others around will see you being a dick head and help further support stereotypes I mentioned before. Simply know your rights, exercise them, and be polite.

USMCRET, I fear you missed the point of my post, it is not that one is a criminal and the other is not (as neither is until an act is committed), it is that "being polite" while doing wrong is Still doing wrong.

When Joe Schmuckatelli asks "Pardon, kind sir, but prithee why are you carrying a firearm?", if he doesn't get an answer he simply figures you have as much right not to answer as he does to ask.
The situation is different when Officer Friendly is using the color of his office to inquire, "Hey, bud, what's wid da gat?" He expects an answer as befits his position. The fact that his position doesn't demand that an answer be made is not likely to be on his mind.

carolina guy · Mar 18, 2013

skidmark said:
Going back to the OP's point -

there is very little you can do (or that I would recommend you do) at the time you are asked to leave, except comply with the request. And trying to get the name of the person telling you to leave. On a few occassions I have asked where the person asking me to leave would like me to leave my grocery cary ("buggy" to some of you). When offered the iopportunity to take what I had in the cart and check out, I declined, saying I was intent on complying with the order to leave. At that point I just walked off (quitely, calmly, not muttering under my breath).

Contacting the person who asked you to leave, or someone higher in the manegerial chain, later that day or the next business day, is recommended. Explain briefly the circumstances and that you complied with the instruction to leave. Ask if you would be allowed to come and discuss the event, now that everything has calmed down. This, I find, is especially helpful when being asked to leave is the result of someone making a complaint that you are armed. It allows you to explain that you did nothing by word or deed to cause the person to perceive a threat, and that you should not be made responsible for the feelings of other people who claim to have beenfrightened - especially those who claim they are frightened you might do "something". Ask if there is security video showing the event that they might review. If so, ask them if they intend to review it. Ask them if the person who asked you to leave reported that you did so calmly, peaceably, and without argument.

While the OP did not mention it, I want to remind folks because it is often complained of -

private property owners cannot infringe on your rights. Only the government can do that.

stay safe.

+1

davidmcbeth · Mar 19, 2013

WalkingWolf said:
And let's not forget that the camera makes officer friendly~~~friendly. .

Either that or a complete psycho ....

MyWifeSaidYes · Mar 19, 2013

In Columbus, Ohio, we have a Wendy's restaurant (just one) that posted after an OC'er got mouthy when asked to leave.

Sad face. :banghead:

USMCRET. · Mar 19, 2013

Fallschirmjäger said:
USMCRET, I fear you missed the point of my post, it is not that one is a criminal and the other is not (as neither is until an act is committed), it is that "being polite" while doing wrong is Still doing wrong.

I understand your point, Im not saying that the officer is right, however Im saying you can choose to be the bigger man or woman and be polite. People will walk by and see that you are being respectful and kind and that the officer is the one being the a**hole.

sharkey · Mar 19, 2013

USMCRET. said:
I understand your point, Im not saying that the officer is right, however Im saying you can choose to be the bigger man or woman and be polite. People will walk by and see that you are being respectful and kind and that the officer is the one being the a**hole.

Problem is, every time I see one of those videos where the OC'r is being a "dick" he's not. Apparently just by refusing to answer questions or show ID you're a dick.

USMCRET. · Mar 19, 2013

:banghead: .........All Im saying is be polite!!! Im not saying anyone is a dick just because they do not want to share their info with the cops.

carolina guy · Mar 19, 2013

USMCRET. said:
:banghead: .........All Im saying is be polite!!! Im not saying anyone is a dick just because they do not want to share their info with the cops.

As long as "being a dick" is not like "beauty"...being that it is in the eye of the beholder.

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