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Thread: Open Carry gray areas

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    Open Carry gray areas

    My questions would be.( Without a CPL) If you can open Carry how do you get your gun out of the car trunk, load it and holster it without falling into some sort of gray area of the law. Can they possibly charge you with brandishing a weapon at that point? Can I open Carry in the city limits on my own property as well as walk/jog down the street. How open does the holster need to be to be considered open Carry? Can I open Carry on a bicycle? I'm sorry I have so much to learn.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Read the stickies then come back to us with questions.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member OneForAll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Read the stickies then come back to us with questions.
    Seconded. Welcome .

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    What is a stickies? obviously new here.
    Last edited by Nocoolusername; 03-04-2013 at 12:48 AM.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocoolusername View Post
    What is a stickies? obviously new here.
    The posts on top with blue tint.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocoolusername View Post
    My questions would be.( Without a CPL) If you can open Carry how do you get your gun out of the car trunk, load it and holster it without falling into some sort of gray area of the law. Can they possibly charge you with brandishing a weapon at that point? Can I open Carry in the city limits on my own property as well as walk/jog down the street. How open does the holster need to be to be considered open Carry? Can I open Carry on a bicycle? I'm sorry I have so much to learn.
    Hi - Welcome (assuming you are not one of the many trolls this forum seems to spawn). The questions you ask are ALL subjects of debate here. Be aware that any citizen can be charged for anything at any time whether they are actually violating the law or not. This is why many here carry video/audio recorders (stealth & other types aka steaming web phones etc).

    First learn the transport laws.
    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...s/firearms.pdf
    Once you understand them fully, learn concealed weapon laws. They are the ones usually used against non cpl OCers. SNIP:"750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
    Sec. 227.

    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license."


    SNIP #2
    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 234d. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution. (b) A church or other house of religious worship.
    (c) A court.
    (d) A theatre.
    (e) A sports arena.
    (f) A day care center.
    (g) A hospital.
    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the
    Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    Now to your questions (I am not a lawyer - do your research to verify what I am saying and if at all possible consult with a lawyer).
    You need to prepare and plan prior to OCing. Have your holster already on your belt and your mag(s) loaded and on you. When you reach your destination go to your trunk & retrieve your properly stowed pistol, in a APPROVED / CONTAINER DESIGNED FOR TRANSPORTING PISTOLS. (safety checked & unloaded preferably with the slide open or cylinder open if its a revolver. ) This makes loading quick & easy once you are ready. Take the case completely out of the the vehicle and keep it off the vehicle. This means setting it on the ground or another stable surface. Load keeping the muzzle in a safe direction & holster it carefully, always keeping your finger away from the trigger. Now when you put the case back in the trunk make sure you do not lean into the trunk with your pistol on. Doing this can be considered "concealed carry" by a officer of the law if they really want to stretch the law. Until you have a CPL you cannot be in possession of a pistol in/on a car.

    To leave - reverse the process, making sure to unload in a safe manner and stow in accordance with the law.

    Bicycles are a grey area so error on the side of caution and don't carry on them until you have your CPL as MI law considers just about anything other than your feet a "vehicle" .

    Walking/Jogging tips - You may OC on public sidewalks, parks etc. Make sure your holster is always 100% visible to avoid a CCW charge.

    Avoid schools & places licensed to sell liquor (Kmart, Kroger, some gas stations etc) & other Gun free zones.
    MLCC query tool for places that have liquor lic. http://www2.dleg.state.mi.us/llist/
    Hope this helps.

    Edit to add - Check out Michigan open carry's website for the laws in a easy to follow format & read the PDF pamphlet & other resources they have here:

    http://www.miopencarry.org/?q=node/12

    http://www.miopencarry.org/?q=node/4

    http://michiganopencarry.org/?q=msplegalupdates

    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-422 MCL 28.422
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 03-04-2013 at 04:06 AM. Reason: grammar / MOC links / CCW law snip.
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Open Carry gray areas

    http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/...opic,25.0.html


    Here's a good resource for someone who is new.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Open Carry gray areas

    @OP

    You should get your CPL. Consider taking Michigan Open Carry's CPL class:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...19#post1906119
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  9. #9
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    @OP

    You should get your CPL. Consider taking Michigan Open Carry's CPL class:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...19#post1906119
    @Q -

    While certainly a great idea to attend one of the MOC CPL training classes. The OP lists his/her/it's location as Grand Rapids?

    Taylor maybe a wee bit of a far drive, but then again maybe not? They could car-pool with you possibly?
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  10. #10
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Open Carry gray areas

    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    @Q -

    While certainly a great idea to attend one of the MOC CPL training classes. The OP lists his/her/it's location as Grand Rapids?

    Taylor maybe a wee bit of a far drive, but then again maybe not? They could car-pool with you possibly?
    For sho! (For sure). If the OP would like to carpool wiry me he can write me at PHofmeister@miopencarry.org.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    For sho! (For sure). If the OP would like to carpool wiry me he can write me at PHofmeister@miopencarry.org.
    Sure, take a car ride with a stranger with a gun...

  12. #12
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    Sure, take a car ride with a creepy bald guy with a gun...
    fify
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  13. #13
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: Open Carry gray areas

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    Sure, take a car ride with a stranger with a gun...
    Stranger Danger!

    Back on topic:
    There are a few of us in GR who would be willing to arrange an impromptu meet-up.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 03-05-2013 at 06:30 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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