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Thread: Heres an interesting "What if".....

  1. #1
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    Heres an interesting "What if".....

    So I was visiting my grandparents in in PA, and while my grandpa and I are both avid shooters and probable have about 50 guns between us, he is still iffy about my OC as he is not used to seeing it even though he lives out in the hills of central PA. He actually brought up a good "what if" question and I do not think it has been asked before so lets see what everyone thinks...

    He said ...What if someone (anti-gun) sees you OCing and it really really bothers them to the point of them calling the police on you and say you "threatened them with a gun" even though it would be a blatant lie as you are just minding your own business with gun in plain sight ?? Granted they would have to make up a full fledged story and go through alot of hassle to get you arrested for it, but lets assume the following....

    They may or may not verbally express their dislike for your OC, or possibly not say anything at all to you!

    You are out in a store or public place with no cameras or witnesses and you are alone.

    In alot of states you can get bracelets for just someone making up a story to get you busted until you prove your side. Just think of how many domestic violence cases are like this as well as a female crying rape etc when no such event occurred.

    Now I have OC'ed up here in NW Indiana for about 5 years with no negative encounters whatsoever, even after only seeing another two people total in that 5 years OCing as well so at least in my general area it is not very prevalent. I just would like to hear what "could" happen if it really got some anti's panties in a bunch and they really would go through something drastic like that . It would be hard to prove a "he said, she said" without any witnesses etc

    Sorry if this post is confusing at all, if you need clarification just ask

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    Campaign Veteran ATM's Avatar
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    Anyone can make up a false report in order to get you investigated, possibly even arrested, but you are still innocent until proven guilty.

    Absent any evidence, there would be no case to prosecute you for the fictitious charge and it would likely be dismissed.

    Hopefully, a follow-up investigation and charge against the instigator for false reporting would be deemed appropriate.

    Sadly, such follow-up rarely seems to be a priority, so, although they created a hassle for you, they are not generally held accountable to the proper repercussions for their illegal action.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Wowwie,,,,,,,,

    I would like to think you wouldn't get braceletted for that, most honest cops can pick a liar easily.

    The anti-gunner would have to claim you threatened them, but then comes the hard part, how did you threaten them? why would you threaten them? what did you say while threatening them? To invent a criminal charge the accuser would have to invent a whole story to go with it, i've never heard of someone just walking up to someone, pulling a gun on them, then re-holstering and walking away without any other prior contact.


    so your accuser would have the convince the officer that you went to someone you never knew or had prior contact with, just pulled your pistol or said something threatening to them, then walked away like nothing had happened. unless there's witnesses around who saw this, I doubt it would go anywhere.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    The lie would mean that the officer now has RAS (which is precisely why I warn OCers NOT to assume that he does not and that the stop is unlawful), however, the call is not enough to establish PC. Absent any other evidence, it is a he-said, she-said, and that ain't PC. The officer will probably offer the caller a chance to sign a complaint. My guess is that they won't. The "under penalty of perjury" will stop most folks, especially those whose only motivation is that they did not like your OC.

    So what should you do if it happens to you? Go through the process you'd go through with any police encounter. Ask if you are free to go. If you are, then go. If not, follow whatever your State laws are regarding identifying yourself to the officer, refuse to consent to any searches or seizures, keep asking if you are free to go, get it all on on the recording, providing commentary for things the tape cannot hear ("Why did you just sweep me with my own gun?"), and otherwise keep your mouth shut.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Doesn't everybody these days carry one of those new electronic safety gadgets that work like truth serum on false allegations? They're called......ready for it........Digital Recorders !!!

    Put in a fresh set of 1000 - 1200 mAmp (or better) rechargeable batteries and turn it on when you leave the house and leave it on until you get home, maybe even until you go to bed.

    Anything unexpected that happens i.e. traffic accident, surly/insulting check out person, can't remember an address that the nice man gave you, or a SHTF situation - it's all there. You can even mark the spot on the recording when you have time.

    So when you are accused of threatening someone at 11:25 AM, you will be able to demonstrate precisely what occurred, where you were and what you were doing + with a date and time stamp.

    Secondary benefit - it will help teach you to be more careful, more friendly in how you deal with the public too.

    I like the Sony ICD-PX312 Digital Flash Recorder , it records fine from inside my pants pocket
    You can take your pick from these or others:
    http://www.walmart.com/ip/Sony-Digit...order/13983124

    Don't go w/o the simple tools - life is too short to leave to chance.

    And no I'm not paranoid.....why should I be? It's all on tape
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    Good one, GS! My answer presupposed that the recorder was running, yet I failed to consider that it would serve as a witness to the crime of the 911-caller!

    My advice, let the thing play out. Don't mention the recorder. Then hold the caller civilly responsible for anything untoward that happens to you. If he signs the complaint, sue.

  7. #7
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillGlockinIt View Post
    So I was visiting my grandparents in in PA, and while my grandpa and I are both avid shooters and probable have about 50 guns between us, he is still iffy about my OC as he is not used to seeing it even though he lives out in the hills of central PA. He actually brought up a good "what if" question and I do not think it has been asked before so lets see what everyone thinks...

    He said ...What if someone (anti-gun) sees you OCing and it really really bothers them to the point of them calling the police on you and say you "threatened them with a gun" even though it would be a blatant lie as you are just minding your own business with gun in plain sight ?? Granted they would have to make up a full fledged story and go through alot of hassle to get you arrested for it, but lets assume the following....

    They may or may not verbally express their dislike for your OC, or possibly not say anything at all to you!

    You are out in a store or public place with no cameras or witnesses and you are alone.

    In alot of states you can get bracelets for just someone making up a story to get you busted until you prove your side. Just think of how many domestic violence cases are like this as well as a female crying rape etc when no such event occurred.

    Now I have OC'ed up here in NW Indiana for about 5 years with no negative encounters whatsoever, even after only seeing another two people total in that 5 years OCing as well so at least in my general area it is not very prevalent. I just would like to hear what "could" happen if it really got some anti's panties in a bunch and they really would go through something drastic like that . It would be hard to prove a "he said, she said" without any witnesses etc

    Sorry if this post is confusing at all, if you need clarification just ask
    I suggest that you research any state laws re this topic. Once they put "pen to paper" they are on the hook, criminally, and likely civilly.

    False affidavit http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5750000050.HTM

    False declarations http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5750000060.HTM

    False reports http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5750000080.HTM

    I do not concern myself with this issue. And as eye95 correctly point out we must be in strict compliance with the law to be sure that we have the best possible outcome if we are confronted by a situation you describe.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  8. #8
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Doesn't everybody these days carry one of those new electronic safety gadgets that work like truth serum on false allegations? They're called......ready for it........Digital Recorders !!!

    Put in a fresh set of 1000 - 1200 mAmp (or better) rechargeable batteries and turn it on when you leave the house and leave it on until you get home, maybe even until you go to bed.

    Anything unexpected that happens i.e. traffic accident, surly/insulting check out person, can't remember an address that the nice man gave you, or a SHTF situation - it's all there. You can even mark the spot on the recording when you have time.

    So when you are accused of threatening someone at 11:25 AM, you will be able to demonstrate precisely what occurred, where you were and what you were doing + with a date and time stamp.

    Secondary benefit - it will help teach you to be more careful, more friendly in how you deal with the public too.

    I like the Sony ICD-PX312 Digital Flash Recorder , it records fine from inside my pants pocket
    You can take your pick from these or others:
    http://www.walmart.com/ip/Sony-Digit...order/13983124

    Don't go w/o the simple tools - life is too short to leave to chance.

    And no I'm not paranoid.....why should I be? It's all on tape
    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Good one, GS! My answer presupposed that the recorder was running, yet I failed to consider that it would serve as a witness to the crime of the 911-caller!

    My advice, let the thing play out. Don't mention the recorder. Then hold the caller civilly responsible for anything untoward that happens to you. If he signs the complaint, sue.
    Another thing I try to do is leave my small recorder running and actively show them I'm recording with my phone....many LEO's knowing they are being recorded will behave better.

    I still don't think it creates RAS though, I thought RAS had to be the cops Suspicion based on articulable facts, not hearsay?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Folks, anybody can make up any false allegation they want to, and purjure themselves seven ways from Sunday in signing an affidavivit for a warrant, and get you cuffed and stuffed, and still not incur one bit of criminal law repercission.

    Ask me how I know.

    Having a digital voice recorder might have shortened the experience, but there is not much to speculate that the drama would not have been played out even with a recording available. A body video camera would have been of little help, as the issue is what the other person "sees" (or says they saw).

    The best defense seems to be a willingness to fight back and make that "innocent until proven guilty" thing hard to overcome. It will cost you in more ways than one.

    So - to the OP's grandfather's scenario - it can happen. If accused at the time of the alleged incident a recording of any response/interchange you have may help clarify the situation. Your best bet is both a good criminal defense attorney and an incompetent prosecutor.

    There are no guarantees in life. We roll the dice when we get up in the morning, and continue rolling them till we go to sleep at night. The best we can do is stay honest, which seems to force the house to remain honest as well.

    stay safe.
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  10. #10
    Regular Member reddn's Avatar
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    Re: Heres an interesting "What if".....

    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I still don't think it creates RAS though, I thought RAS had to be the cops Suspicion based on articulable facts, not hearsay?
    If it comes directly from someone involved is it still hearsay?

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay
    From wikipedia on the link above " Hearsay is information gathered by one person from another person concerning some event, condition, or thing of which the first person had no direct experience."

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  11. #11
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    If a cop repeats your words is it hearsay?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Heres an interesting "What if".....

    Hearsay is inadmissible in court when attempting to prove someone guilty (with a few exceptions). One of the lawyers here should verify, but an allegation of a crime is part of the "totality of circumstances" that an officer can articulate that led him to reasonably suspect that you committed a crime.

    It still ain't PC.

    Anyway, hearsay is when one person testifies to what another said. In this case, the caller is claiming to be a direct eyewitness to (and the victim of) a crime.

    If the complainant is anonymous and has no further contact with the responding officer, IMO, that would not be enough for RAS. However, I would assume it is, just to be on the safe side.


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  13. #13
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Another question.

    A 911 dispatcher receives the/a call, which records the call (evidence?). A cop is dispatched based on the call to 911. I take it that the 911 dispatcher's dispatch to a cop is not hearsay (claimant, to dispatcher, to cop). I guess the dispatcher is a intermediary "device" to the responding cop since the claimant can not call that cop directly.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillGlockinIt View Post
    SNIP He said ...What if someone (anti-gun) sees you OCing and it really really bothers them to the point of them calling the police on you and say you "threatened them with a gun" even though it would be a blatant lie as you are just minding your own business with gun in plain sight ?? In alot of states you can get bracelets for just someone making up a story to get you busted until you prove your side.
    The correct reply to dad is to address his underlying concern, not the question he he asked.

    The correct reply is going to be somewhere in the region of, "Well, yeah, dad. That could happen. Its a risk all OCers take. Most of us have evaluated the likelihood of serious legal problems as low, and decided promoting self-defense is worth the risk."

    For example, in VA, brandishing is a Class 1 misdemeanor, so, if memory serves, arrest is not supposed to occur--a cop is supposed to issue a summons. Now, a Class 1 misdemeanor is a serious misdemeanor; I think its up to a year in jail and/or up to a $2500 fine. So, its not a light issue. An OCer might get handcuffed while the cop is sorting things out, but if the law is followed, an arrest would not occur.

    You also have the details of case law on probable cause. For example, there are rafts of case law on whether a phone tip meets criteria referred to as indicia of reliability. The short story is that the tipster must meet certain criteria before the courts will agree that probable cause was met. Anonymity is a criteria that leans away from probable cause. See a favorite case of OCers called Florida vs JL for some information on indicia of reliability and how they affect probable cause.

    I am thinking that in VA, the most a cop who possesses genuine RAS could do is Terry Stop the OCer. If the OCer politely exercises every one of his rights, the cop will be unable to convert RAS into probable cause for a citation and will eventually have to let the OCer go. Unless maybe there are multiple witnesses saying the same thing against the OCer. Maybe User will see this and respond.

    Also, there are all the other points mentioned in posts above. Voice-recorders. Store security cameras. Etc. Years ago, Supermoderator Mike advocated carrying something like a coffee cup in your strong hand.
    Last edited by Citizen; 03-04-2013 at 11:56 AM.
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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Doesn't everybody these days carry one of those new electronic safety gadgets that work like truth serum on false allegations? They're called......ready for it........Digital Recorders !!!

    Put in a fresh set of 1000 - 1200 mAmp (or better) rechargeable batteries and turn it on when you leave the house and leave it on until you get home, maybe even until you go to bed.

    Anything unexpected that happens e.g. traffic accident, surly/insulting check out person, can't remember an address that the nice man gave you, or a SHTF situation - it's all there. You can even mark the spot on the recording when you have time.

    So when you are accused of threatening someone at 11:25 AM, you will be able to demonstrate precisely what occurred, where you were and what you were doing + with a date and time stamp.

    Secondary benefit - it will help teach you to be more careful, more friendly in how you deal with the public too.

    I like the Sony ICD-PX312 Digital Flash Recorder , it records fine from inside my pants pocket
    You can take your pick from these or others:
    http://www.walmart.com/ip/Sony-Digit...order/13983124

    Don't go w/o the simple tools - life is too short to leave to chance.

    And no I'm not paranoid.....why should I be? It's all on tape
    Fixed it.

    IE is a limiting note EG is an expanding note.

    (e.g. traffic stops, bad cops, idiots) this is open to other encounters.

    (i.e. traffic stops, bad cops, liars) limited to what was listed.

    http://www.elearnenglishlanguage.com...ties/egie.html
    Last edited by Freedom1Man; 03-04-2013 at 12:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Another question.

    A 911 dispatcher receives the/a call, which records the call (evidence?). A cop is dispatched based on the call to 911. I take it that the 911 dispatcher's dispatch to a cop is not hearsay (claimant, to dispatcher, to cop). I guess the dispatcher is a intermediary "device" to the responding cop since the claimant can not call that cop directly.
    "Hearsay" is a term regarding evidence presented in court. What the 911 caller is saying is not being used in court--at least not yet. It is being used to justify the very first stages of an investigation, the investigatory stop, which only requires RAS. The officer could formulate RAS using, in part, the information relayed from the dispatcher.

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    It's a stupid and flawed question from the very beginning. ANYONE at ANY time can call the cops and make a false report against you. As long as you are obeying the laws your not going to be charged with anything. If we was to worry about this we should probably just stay at home at all times.

    If this is the approach then you definitely shouldn't conceal carry a gun since someone could see the printing, call the cops about a man with a gun, and now you actually do have to prove you are legally allowed to conceal the firearm. (In most states anyway). Hopefully this sounds stupid, because it's supposed to.

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    I think it is a very good question. It highlights the difference between a simple MWAG call which, in OC States, would not create RAS and a call reporting a crime by a MWAG which almost surely would create RAS. If we OC, we need to consider these contingencies so that we have already cogitated on them before they happen. When you are in it, you want to be able to react effectively, not to waste time considering your options.

    The question prompted folks to say some things that needed saying.

    So I thank the OP for asking it.

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    Well technically the question only stated that an anti-gunner could create a false report against you for OC'ing. Which makes it a stupid question, since someone can make a false report against you for any reason at any time, that doesn't mean you shouldn't exercise your rights. The conversation that followed brought up RAS and whether or not the false report would create RAS, which is a useful conversation stemming from a stupid question. Basically it boils down to anytime you are stopped the first thing out of your mouth should probably be "Am I being detained" then continue accordingly.

  20. #20
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADobbs1989 View Post
    It's a stupid and flawed question from the very beginning. ANYONE at ANY time can call the cops and make a false report against you. As long as you are obeying the laws your not going to be charged with anything. If we was to worry about this we should probably just stay at home at all times.

    If this is the approach then you definitely shouldn't conceal carry a gun since someone could see the printing, call the cops about a man with a gun, and now you actually do have to prove you are legally allowed to conceal the firearm. (In most states anyway). Hopefully this sounds stupid, because it's supposed to.
    Never is seeking knowledge stupid, nor is this one flawed as it involved a discussion between 2 family members with different ideas.

    I asked a lot of questions along the way, got more than a few stupid answers, but I'm still asking questions.

    Look at it this way: If one doesn't have any questions, would they have any answers?
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    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  21. #21
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grandpa
    What if someone (anti-gun) sees you OCing and it really really bothers them to the point of them calling the police on you and say you "threatened them with a gun" even though it would be a blatant lie
    Almost since I've been carrying, I've been switching up the markings on my carry pistol from time to time, Just In Case something like this happened.
    Markings?
    Various stickers, usually on the slide. Things like a teacher would put on a school paper for an A.
    Sometimes tape of different colors.*
    Something that's a clear contrast to the basic black & would be seen easily if I'd actually had it out of the holster, but is covered by the holster.

    If something like that happened, when the Nice Officers [TM] arrived to investigate I'd ask them to ask the complainant to describe my pistol. (Preferably while standing in front of their car & its audio/video recorder.)
    Once they got a description ("it's black, it's evil") I'd let them look at my pistol. It should be very plain that the person was lying. S/he would be unable to describe where the marking is, or what color.

    Then yes, I'd certainly sign a complaint & agree to testify against the person for their abuse of the 911 system, making a false report, wasting police resources, and malicious actions against me.

    * It's a Glock. Not much can hurt it.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 03-04-2013 at 10:13 PM.
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  22. #22
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Y'know... I kinda like that idea, MKE. Another thing I had an idea about but wasn't sure how to implement was a 'microtagged' holster add-on. One that would dispense a couple thousand micro-stamped tags when the pistol was withdrawn from the holster. No tags - it wasn't drawn.

  23. #23
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    "Hearsay" is a term regarding evidence presented in court. What the 911 caller is saying is not being used in court--at least not yet. It is being used to justify the very first stages of an investigation, the investigatory stop, which only requires RAS. The officer could formulate RAS using, in part, the information relayed from the dispatcher.
    .....never mind. I was about to slide off into the weeds. Hearsay only exists in a courtroom. And seems to benefit the state more times than not. Thanks.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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