Heres an interesting "What if".....

So I was visiting my grandparents in in PA, and while my grandpa and I are both avid shooters and probable have about 50 guns between us, he is still iffy about my OC as he is not used to seeing it even though he lives out in the hills of central PA. He actually brought up a good "what if" question and I do not think it has been asked before so lets see what everyone thinks...

He said ...What if someone (anti-gun) sees you OCing and it really really bothers them to the point of them calling the police on you and say you "threatened them with a gun" even though it would be a blatant lie as you are just minding your own business with gun in plain sight ?? Granted they would have to make up a full fledged story and go through alot of hassle to get you arrested for it, but lets assume the following....

They may or may not verbally express their dislike for your OC, or possibly not say anything at all to you!

You are out in a store or public place with no cameras or witnesses and you are alone.

In alot of states you can get bracelets for just someone making up a story to get you busted until you prove your side. Just think of how many domestic violence cases are like this as well as a female crying rape etc when no such event occurred.

Now I have OC'ed up here in NW Indiana for about 5 years with no negative encounters whatsoever, even after only seeing another two people total in that 5 years OCing as well so at least in my general area it is not very prevalent. I just would like to hear what "could" happen if it really got some anti's panties in a bunch and they really would go through something drastic like that . It would be hard to prove a "he said, she said" without any witnesses etc

Sorry if this post is confusing at all, if you need clarification just ask

Anyone can make up a false report in order to get you investigated, possibly even arrested, but you are still innocent until proven guilty.

Absent any evidence, there would be no case to prosecute you for the fictitious charge and it would likely be dismissed.

Hopefully, a follow-up investigation and charge against the instigator for false reporting would be deemed appropriate.

Sadly, such follow-up rarely seems to be a priority, so, although they created a hassle for you, they are not generally held accountable to the proper repercussions for their illegal action.

Wowwie,,,,,,,,

I would like to think you wouldn't get braceletted for that, most honest cops can pick a liar easily.

The anti-gunner would have to claim you threatened them, but then comes the hard part, how did you threaten them? why would you threaten them? what did you say while threatening them? To invent a criminal charge the accuser would have to invent a whole story to go with it, i've never heard of someone just walking up to someone, pulling a gun on them, then re-holstering and walking away without any other prior contact.


so your accuser would have the convince the officer that you went to someone you never knew or had prior contact with, just pulled your pistol or said something threatening to them, then walked away like nothing had happened. unless there's witnesses around who saw this, I doubt it would go anywhere.

The lie would mean that the officer now has RAS (which is precisely why I warn OCers NOT to assume that he does not and that the stop is unlawful), however, the call is not enough to establish PC. Absent any other evidence, it is a he-said, she-said, and that ain't PC. The officer will probably offer the caller a chance to sign a complaint. My guess is that they won't. The "under penalty of perjury" will stop most folks, especially those whose only motivation is that they did not like your OC.

So what should you do if it happens to you? Go through the process you'd go through with any police encounter. Ask if you are free to go. If you are, then go. If not, follow whatever your State laws are regarding identifying yourself to the officer, refuse to consent to any searches or seizures, keep asking if you are free to go, get it all on on the recording, providing commentary for things the tape cannot hear ("Why did you just sweep me with my own gun?"), and otherwise keep your mouth shut.

Doesn't everybody these days carry one of those new electronic safety gadgets that work like truth serum on false allegations? They're called......ready for it........Digital Recorders !!!

Put in a fresh set of 1000 - 1200 mAmp (or better) rechargeable batteries and turn it on when you leave the house and leave it on until you get home, maybe even until you go to bed.

Anything unexpected that happens i.e. traffic accident, surly/insulting check out person, can't remember an address that the nice man gave you, or a SHTF situation - it's all there. You can even mark the spot on the recording when you have time.

So when you are accused of threatening someone at 11:25 AM, you will be able to demonstrate precisely what occurred, where you were and what you were doing + with a date and time stamp.

Secondary benefit - it will help teach you to be more careful, more friendly in how you deal with the public too.

I like the Sony ICD-PX312 Digital Flash Recorder , it records fine from inside my pants pocket
You can take your pick from these or others:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Sony-Digital-Flash-Recorder/13983124

Don't go w/o the simple tools - life is too short to leave to chance.

And no I'm not paranoid.....why should I be? It's all on tape

Good one, GS! My answer presupposed that the recorder was running, yet I failed to consider that it would serve as a witness to the crime of the 911-caller!

My advice, let the thing play out. Don't mention the recorder. Then hold the caller civilly responsible for anything untoward that happens to you. If he signs the complaint, sue.

StillGlockinIt said:

So I was visiting my grandparents in in PA, and while my grandpa and I are both avid shooters and probable have about 50 guns between us, he is still iffy about my OC as he is not used to seeing it even though he lives out in the hills of central PA. He actually brought up a good "what if" question and I do not think it has been asked before so lets see what everyone thinks...

He said ...What if someone (anti-gun) sees you OCing and it really really bothers them to the point of them calling the police on you and say you "threatened them with a gun" even though it would be a blatant lie as you are just minding your own business with gun in plain sight ?? Granted they would have to make up a full fledged story and go through alot of hassle to get you arrested for it, but lets assume the following....

They may or may not verbally express their dislike for your OC, or possibly not say anything at all to you!

You are out in a store or public place with no cameras or witnesses and you are alone.

In alot of states you can get bracelets for just someone making up a story to get you busted until you prove your side. Just think of how many domestic violence cases are like this as well as a female crying rape etc when no such event occurred.

Now I have OC'ed up here in NW Indiana for about 5 years with no negative encounters whatsoever, even after only seeing another two people total in that 5 years OCing as well so at least in my general area it is not very prevalent. I just would like to hear what "could" happen if it really got some anti's panties in a bunch and they really would go through something drastic like that . It would be hard to prove a "he said, she said" without any witnesses etc

Sorry if this post is confusing at all, if you need clarification just ask

Click to expand...

I suggest that you research any state laws re this topic. Once they put "pen to paper" they are on the hook, criminally, and likely civilly.

False affidavit http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5750000050.HTM

False declarations http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5750000060.HTM

False reports http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5750000080.HTM

I do not concern myself with this issue. And as eye95 correctly point out we must be in strict compliance with the law to be sure that we have the best possible outcome if we are confronted by a situation you describe.

Grapeshot said:

Doesn't everybody these days carry one of those new electronic safety gadgets that work like truth serum on false allegations? They're called......ready for it........Digital Recorders !!!

Put in a fresh set of 1000 - 1200 mAmp (or better) rechargeable batteries and turn it on when you leave the house and leave it on until you get home, maybe even until you go to bed.

Anything unexpected that happens i.e. traffic accident, surly/insulting check out person, can't remember an address that the nice man gave you, or a SHTF situation - it's all there. You can even mark the spot on the recording when you have time.

So when you are accused of threatening someone at 11:25 AM, you will be able to demonstrate precisely what occurred, where you were and what you were doing + with a date and time stamp.

Secondary benefit - it will help teach you to be more careful, more friendly in how you deal with the public too.

I like the Sony ICD-PX312 Digital Flash Recorder , it records fine from inside my pants pocket

You can take your pick from these or others:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Sony-Digital-Flash-Recorder/13983124

Don't go w/o the simple tools - life is too short to leave to chance.

And no I'm not paranoid.....why should I be? It's all on tape

Click to expand...

eye95 said:

Good one, GS! My answer presupposed that the recorder was running, yet I failed to consider that it would serve as a witness to the crime of the 911-caller!

My advice, let the thing play out. Don't mention the recorder. Then hold the caller civilly responsible for anything untoward that happens to you. If he signs the complaint, sue.

Click to expand...

Another thing I try to do is leave my small recorder running and actively show them I'm recording with my phone....many LEO's knowing they are being recorded will behave better.

I still don't think it creates RAS though, I thought RAS had to be the cops Suspicion based on articulable facts, not hearsay?

Folks, anybody can make up any false allegation they want to, and purjure themselves seven ways from Sunday in signing an affidavivit for a warrant, and get you cuffed and stuffed, and still not incur one bit of criminal law repercission.

Ask me how I know.

Having a digital voice recorder might have shortened the experience, but there is not much to speculate that the drama would not have been played out even with a recording available. A body video camera would have been of little help, as the issue is what the other person "sees" (or says they saw).

The best defense seems to be a willingness to fight back and make that "innocent until proven guilty" thing hard to overcome. It will cost you in more ways than one.

So - to the OP's grandfather's scenario - it can happen. If accused at the time of the alleged incident a recording of any response/interchange you have may help clarify the situation. Your best bet is both a good criminal defense attorney and an incompetent prosecutor.

There are no guarantees in life. We roll the dice when we get up in the morning, and continue rolling them till we go to sleep at night. The best we can do is stay honest, which seems to force the house to remain honest as well.

stay safe.

sudden valley gunner said:

I still don't think it creates RAS though, I thought RAS had to be the cops Suspicion based on articulable facts, not hearsay?

Click to expand...

If it comes directly from someone involved is it still hearsay?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay
From wikipedia on the link above " Hearsay is information gathered by one person from another person concerning some event, condition, or thing of which the first person had no direct experience."

Thomas

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk 2

If a cop repeats your words is it hearsay?

Hearsay is inadmissible in court when attempting to prove someone guilty (with a few exceptions). One of the lawyers here should verify, but an allegation of a crime is part of the "totality of circumstances" that an officer can articulate that led him to reasonably suspect that you committed a crime.

It still ain't PC.

Anyway, hearsay is when one person testifies to what another said. In this case, the caller is claiming to be a direct eyewitness to (and the victim of) a crime.

If the complainant is anonymous and has no further contact with the responding officer, IMO, that would not be enough for RAS. However, I would assume it is, just to be on the safe side.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

Another question.

A 911 dispatcher receives the/a call, which records the call (evidence?). A cop is dispatched based on the call to 911. I take it that the 911 dispatcher's dispatch to a cop is not hearsay (claimant, to dispatcher, to cop). I guess the dispatcher is a intermediary "device" to the responding cop since the claimant can not call that cop directly.

StillGlockinIt said:

SNIP He said ...What if someone (anti-gun) sees you OCing and it really really bothers them to the point of them calling the police on you and say you "threatened them with a gun" even though it would be a blatant lie as you are just minding your own business with gun in plain sight ?? In alot of states you can get bracelets for just someone making up a story to get you busted until you prove your side.

Click to expand...

The correct reply to dad is to address his underlying concern, not the question he he asked.

The correct reply is going to be somewhere in the region of, "Well, yeah, dad. That could happen. Its a risk all OCers take. Most of us have evaluated the likelihood of serious legal problems as low, and decided promoting self-defense is worth the risk."

For example, in VA, brandishing is a Class 1 misdemeanor, so, if memory serves, arrest is not supposed to occur--a cop is supposed to issue a summons. Now, a Class 1 misdemeanor is a serious misdemeanor; I think its up to a year in jail and/or up to a $2500 fine. So, its not a light issue. An OCer might get handcuffed while the cop is sorting things out, but if the law is followed, an arrest would not occur.

You also have the details of case law on probable cause. For example, there are rafts of case law on whether a phone tip meets criteria referred to as indicia of reliability. The short story is that the tipster must meet certain criteria before the courts will agree that probable cause was met. Anonymity is a criteria that leans away from probable cause. See a favorite case of OCers called Florida vs JL for some information on indicia of reliability and how they affect probable cause.

I am thinking that in VA, the most a cop who possesses genuine RAS could do is Terry Stop the OCer. If the OCer politely exercises every one of his rights, the cop will be unable to convert RAS into probable cause for a citation and will eventually have to let the OCer go. Unless maybe there are multiple witnesses saying the same thing against the OCer. Maybe User will see this and respond.

Also, there are all the other points mentioned in posts above. Voice-recorders. Store security cameras. Etc. Years ago, Supermoderator Mike advocated carrying something like a coffee cup in your strong hand.

Grapeshot said:

Doesn't everybody these days carry one of those new electronic safety gadgets that work like truth serum on false allegations? They're called......ready for it........Digital Recorders !!!

Put in a fresh set of 1000 - 1200 mAmp (or better) rechargeable batteries and turn it on when you leave the house and leave it on until you get home, maybe even until you go to bed.

Anything unexpected that happens e.g. traffic accident, surly/insulting check out person, can't remember an address that the nice man gave you, or a SHTF situation - it's all there. You can even mark the spot on the recording when you have time.

So when you are accused of threatening someone at 11:25 AM, you will be able to demonstrate precisely what occurred, where you were and what you were doing + with a date and time stamp.

Secondary benefit - it will help teach you to be more careful, more friendly in how you deal with the public too.

I like the Sony ICD-PX312 Digital Flash Recorder , it records fine from inside my pants pocket

You can take your pick from these or others:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Sony-Digital-Flash-Recorder/13983124

Don't go w/o the simple tools - life is too short to leave to chance.

And no I'm not paranoid.....why should I be? It's all on tape

Click to expand...

Fixed it.

IE is a limiting note EG is an expanding note.

(e.g. traffic stops, bad cops, idiots) this is open to other encounters.

(i.e. traffic stops, bad cops, liars) limited to what was listed.

http://www.elearnenglishlanguage.com/difficulties/egie.html

OC for ME said:

Another question.

A 911 dispatcher receives the/a call, which records the call (evidence?). A cop is dispatched based on the call to 911. I take it that the 911 dispatcher's dispatch to a cop is not hearsay (claimant, to dispatcher, to cop). I guess the dispatcher is a intermediary "device" to the responding cop since the claimant can not call that cop directly.

Click to expand...

"Hearsay" is a term regarding evidence presented in court. What the 911 caller is saying is not being used in court--at least not yet. It is being used to justify the very first stages of an investigation, the investigatory stop, which only requires RAS. The officer could formulate RAS using, in part, the information relayed from the dispatcher.

It's a stupid and flawed question from the very beginning. ANYONE at ANY time can call the cops and make a false report against you. As long as you are obeying the laws your not going to be charged with anything. If we was to worry about this we should probably just stay at home at all times.

If this is the approach then you definitely shouldn't conceal carry a gun since someone could see the printing, call the cops about a man with a gun, and now you actually do have to prove you are legally allowed to conceal the firearm. (In most states anyway). Hopefully this sounds stupid, because it's supposed to.

I think it is a very good question. It highlights the difference between a simple MWAG call which, in OC States, would not create RAS and a call reporting a crime by a MWAG which almost surely would create RAS. If we OC, we need to consider these contingencies so that we have already cogitated on them before they happen. When you are in it, you want to be able to react effectively, not to waste time considering your options.

The question prompted folks to say some things that needed saying.

So I thank the OP for asking it.

Well technically the question only stated that an anti-gunner could create a false report against you for OC'ing. Which makes it a stupid question, since someone can make a false report against you for any reason at any time, that doesn't mean you shouldn't exercise your rights. The conversation that followed brought up RAS and whether or not the false report would create RAS, which is a useful conversation stemming from a stupid question. Basically it boils down to anytime you are stopped the first thing out of your mouth should probably be "Am I being detained" then continue accordingly.

ADobbs1989 said:

It's a stupid and flawed question from the very beginning. ANYONE at ANY time can call the cops and make a false report against you. As long as you are obeying the laws your not going to be charged with anything. If we was to worry about this we should probably just stay at home at all times.

If this is the approach then you definitely shouldn't conceal carry a gun since someone could see the printing, call the cops about a man with a gun, and now you actually do have to prove you are legally allowed to conceal the firearm. (In most states anyway). Hopefully this sounds stupid, because it's supposed to.

Click to expand...

Never is seeking knowledge stupid, nor is this one flawed as it involved a discussion between 2 family members with different ideas.

I asked a lot of questions along the way, got more than a few stupid answers, but I'm still asking questions.

Look at it this way: If one doesn't have any questions, would they have any answers?