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Thread: Illegal seisure of gun ?

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    Illegal seisure of gun ?

    What if anything can be done about a leo taking your gun after you say you don't consent to an illegal seisure while being nazzi stopped ?
    Last edited by casper; 03-04-2013 at 08:33 AM.

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Go talk to a lawyer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dougwg View Post
    Go talk to a lawyer.
    Nice, glad you took the time to type "that" in. LOL, I didn't mean it to come off like that, sorry.
    Last edited by casper; 03-04-2013 at 10:34 AM.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    I'll put it another way. Go talk to an attorney, or get shot attempting to prevent a unlawful seizure.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Ok, I'll put it another way. Are they acountable for breaking the law ? Has anything ever been done, or do we just let them break the laws that they are supposed to uphold ? If they can't legally do it, why do we not have a way to combat it ? Or is it just one of those thing we just have to except. I personally don't care if they hold on to it, but it seams like they are slapping us in the face when they do it, with the what are you gonna do about it attitude.
    Last edited by casper; 03-04-2013 at 09:37 AM.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Illegal seisure of gun ?

    Go talk to a lawyer. You may have a cause for a 42 USC 1983 action.

    In Michigan 1983 actions have been prosecuted and settlements made by law enforcement agencies.
    Last edited by TheQ; 03-04-2013 at 09:34 AM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Go talk to a lawyer. You may have a cause for a 42 USC 1983 action.

    In Michigan 1983 actions have been prosecuted and settlements made by law enforcement agencies.
    I don't have personnal experiance with it. It just made me wonder why when someone is stopped illegally they stand their ground on everything else, but the police just egnore that right. I was just wondering, not a big deal to me, I was just making an observation. I'm just tring to learn. I'm not tring to start anything, I just thought this would be a good place to ask.
    Last edited by casper; 03-04-2013 at 09:46 AM.

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    I don't have personnal experiance with it. It just made me wonder why when someone is stopped illegally they stand their ground on everything else, but the police just egnore that right. I was just wondering, not a big deal to me, I was just making an observation. I'm just tring to learn. I'm not tring to start anything, I just thought this would be a good place to ask.
    And thats fine, and we're happy to answer your questions. However, when someone, as Doug did, does give you an answer, you probably shouldn't react so harshly. 'Go talk to a lawyer' was not a sarcastic comment, it was, in fact, the only solution. They are accountable for breaking the law, and in order to hold them accountable, you will likely need the assistance of a lawyer.

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    Regular Member fjpro2a's Avatar
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    Difficult site, at times

    Casper, It is my opinion that this site, at times, can be frustrating when trying to get some feedback. You could get responses that range from one word to a few pages long. I am from the Peoples Republic of New Jersey, so I have no personal experience. But, after reading many threads over the years, I offer the following. First, you could meet with the Police Chief in your jurisdiction, relay your experience, and ask some questions. Remain polite just as you have been on this site. After that, join an open carry group in your area. When you meet for breakfasts, lunches, or dinners, tell other members about your experience and see if one of them has any suggestions. Maybe a few of you could visit the police station. Third, invite the LEO who seized your firearm to an open carry meeting. This suggestion may not go over big on this forum, but in my opinion, it is a GOOD suggestion. Keep us informed. you may continue to get frustrating responses, but don't let this upset you, at least not too much. Keep up the good work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    And thats fine, and we're happy to answer your questions. However, when someone, as Doug did, does give you an answer, you probably shouldn't react so harshly. 'Go talk to a lawyer' was not a sarcastic comment, it was, in fact, the only solution. They are accountable for breaking the law, and in order to hold them accountable, you will likely need the assistance of a lawyer.
    I didn't mean it that way, I reread it and it does sound like it though. I should have put this guy on there. I changed the post.
    Last edited by casper; 03-04-2013 at 10:34 AM.

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    Regular Member March Hare's Avatar
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    First, I'm not a lawyer, my advice is just that; advice.

    I would highly recommend, in addition to the advice already given here, getting an audio and/or video recorder and having it on you and recording whenever you are out and about while armed.
    That will help remove any doubt about what happened during an encounter, whether it's with another citizen or with law enforcement.

    Getting clear advice/opinion from an attorney is probably the most valuable thing to take away from this discussion, having that will let you know exactly where you stand and what your options are.
    Get copies of the sections of the law dealing with firearms and read, reread and reread them again. Knowledge is your best weapon when it comes to the law.

    Good luck and keep us updated with any future interactions.

    -MH
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    Seriously, who is John Galt?
    Vires et honestas

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    And thats fine, and we're happy to answer your questions. However, when someone, as Doug did, does give you an answer, you probably shouldn't react so harshly. 'Go talk to a lawyer' was not a sarcastic comment, it was, in fact, the only solution.
    casper perhaps could have asked appropriate followup questions, instead of the way he responded. However, we--the experienced guys here--can be better at providing a little more complete answers.

    We don't just have to say, "Find a lawyer". We're better than that, because we are one of the "go to" websites for such information. Not only do we know to go to a lawyer, we know of a few lawyers who are really good firearms-related litigators.

    To my experienced friends here: let's be a little more helpful.

    casper, here are a few attorneys who specialize in firearms law and are good:
    Dean Greenblatt
    Jim Simmons
    Steve Dulan

    You should be able to web search and find their office contact info. They may be able to help, or recommend someone else who can. If you have trouble getting in contact with them, let us know.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Illegal seisure of gun ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    casper perhaps could have asked appropriate followup questions, instead of the way he responded. However, we--the experienced guys here--can be better at providing a little more complete answers.

    We don't just have to say, "Find a lawyer". We're better than that, because we are one of the "go to" websites for such information. Not only do we know to go to a lawyer, we know of a few lawyers who are really good firearms-related litigators.

    To my experienced friends here: let's be a little more helpful.

    casper, here are a few attorneys who specialize in firearms law and are good:
    Dean Greenblatt
    Jim Simmons
    Steve Dulan

    You should be able to web search and find their office contact info. They may be able to help, or recommend someone else who can. If you have trouble getting in contact with them, let us know.
    I don't think you went far enough either!

    You can and should do better, DanM! Telling him to google the lawyers names *scoffs*

    Casper:

    You can find the contact information for a few lawyers Michigan Open Carry recommends here: http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/...ic,1804.0.html
    Last edited by TheQ; 03-04-2013 at 11:36 AM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    The real answer? Not much. Unless you get your law degree or find a lawyer who likes to work for free. Truth of the matter is the civil damages(IF you win)for having your gun "seized" during an OC stop will be nearly non-existent. So how much money would you spend to "make a point" that your rights were violated?

    It's going to cost you at least $2500-$5000 to retain a lawyer(IF you can find one to take the case, that's why I recommended getting your law degree). After you hopefully win the case, you "MIGHT" win the $5000(HIGHLY doubtful) back. So after your lawyer gets his cut of the winnings(40-50%) you break even or LOSE $2500(that's why finding a lawyer who works for free is needed) just to make a point. Some would say "its not about the money" and a true patriot would happily lose $2500 to prove a point. Would that be you?

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    Ok, I'll put it another way. Are they accountable for breaking the law ? Has anything ever been done, or do we just let them break the laws that they are supposed to uphold ? If they can't legally do it, why do we not have a way to combat it ? Or is it just one of those thing we just have to except. I personally don't care if they hold on to it, but it seams like they are slapping us in the face when they do it, with the what are you gonna do about it attitude.
    Yes, they are accountable for breaking the law. You, as the wronged citizen must hold that cop accountable. The legality of the seizure must be resolved via the courts. Any attempt to exert your rights, physically, will always go very badly for the citizen. On the street the cop has the power of the state to wield if he chooses to wield that power, rightly or wrongly. In a courtroom you too have the power of the state to wield.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    casper perhaps could have asked appropriate followup questions, instead of the way he responded. However, we--the experienced guys here--can be better at providing a little more complete answers.

    We don't just have to say, "Find a lawyer". We're better than that, because we are one of the "go to" websites for such information. Not only do we know to go to a lawyer, we know of a few lawyers who are really good firearms-related litigators.

    To my experienced friends here: let's be a little more helpful.

    casper, here are a few attorneys who specialize in firearms law and are good:
    Dean Greenblatt
    Jim Simmons
    Steve Dulan

    You should be able to web search and find their office contact info. They may be able to help, or recommend someone else who can. If you have trouble getting in contact with them, let us know.
    Sorry to assume, casper. Thanks for the reply.

    DanM, you are also correct, and also thanks.

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    Thanks guys, I see all those how to videos on how to respond to the stops, and all sounded good except that part. The police just egnore the person and go right on breaking the law. I just wondered if the fact that they never get in trouble for it was why. A right not used is lost type thing. Again thanks for the help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    What if anything can be done about a leo taking your gun after you say you don't consent to an illegal seisure while being nazzi stopped ?
    As already mentioned, get a lawyer.

    However, cops know that few people will sue over the temporary seizure of firearm during a traffic stop or detention. It just costs way too much for many people, with too little return. Cops know this.

    But!! You do have a less expensive option that can be effective. Not always; but plenty of times. Formal written complaint. Especially if you take a few moments and collect all the rest of the information and have a recording of the encounter.

    Now, brace yourself for some criticism. It does not help at all for you to write "illegal seizure" while being "nazi stopped". Nobody can give good advice since there is no such thing as a nazi stop in 4th Amendment court opinions. And, the term "illegal seizure" in reference to a gun and consent is kinda pointless, because you don't have to consent or refuse consent to an illegal seizure. If its an illegal seizure, its illegal. Consent plays no part. So, when it comes to this sort of thing, a little precision is necessary. Being angry or indignant is the appropriate response for a red-blooded American; its just that you have to keep that separate enough of use precise-enough terms.

    Lets start with being traffic-stopped. In PA vs Mimms, the Supreme Court of the United States (SCOTUS) said that during a traffic stop a gun = danger and a cop may temporarily seize the gun for officer safety. So, if the traffic stop was legal, the temporary gun seizure will be legal. Another case about guns and traffic stops is Michigan vs Long. So, if you want to complain about a traffic stop gun seizure you'll have to badger the cops for lack of judgement, making up a justification/pretext to check a serial number, and so forth, rather than attack the legality. Don't worry about it--a little creative thinking will give you plenty of ways to ridicule the snot out of the cops for seizing your gun even if it was technicially legal for them to do so.

    Regarding a Terry Stop (temporary detention for investigation of a crime), SCOTUS said in Terry v Ohio that if a cop has reason to suspect a person is or about to commit a crime, the cop may temporarily seize him while he investigates. And, if the cop suspects he might be both armed and presently dangerous (two conditions) and nothing in the initial moments of the encounter serves to dispel his concerns for his safety (third condition), then the officer may search that person for weapons.

    So, if the Terry Stop itself is illegal, for example is done without genuine reasonable suspicion, then the temporary gun seizure is also illegal. The problem is the OCer has almost no way to know for sure whether the Terry Stop is legal while it is happening to him.

    But, if the Terry Stop is legal, then the analysis has to move to whether the cop had legitimate reason to think the person was both armed and presently dangerous. If the cop can see the OCed gun, that answers the question about whether the suspect is armed. But, not whether he is presently dangerous. In the interest of full disclosure, I have never read a court case where a later court threw out a case or evidence because the cops failed to show both 1) armed, and 2) presently dangerous. Its almost as though, despite the Terry court's clear requirement for two conditions, lower courts have treated it as though armed = dangerous. But, Terry v Ohio says what it says nonetheless. And, it provides an avenue of attack in a formal complaint. For example, a father merely enjoying a festival in the presence of his wife and two kids completely lacks the presently dangerous characteristic of someone casing a jewelry store for a robbery.

    The whole point of a formal written complaint is to let the cops know you know. After a well written complaint that cites the law and makes articulate observations about lack of judgement and draws solid conclusions based on cops' behavior, the cops have to start being careful. "Oh, snit! Somebody knows! Now we gotta be careful." Also, a formal written complaint starts documenting patterns of behavior. Cops don't want that because it makes it easier to win a federal lawsuit for rights violations. Nope. Cops don't want that.

    Formal written complaints are not magic bullets. They don't always result in immediate visible change, but understand that just because the police department outwardly denies the complained behavior does not mean nothing happened behind the scenes. A good example is what happened a few years ago after some cops got out of hand with several OCers in a restaurant. Cops denied almost everything in the formal complaints; but! from that day forward not one OCer has had more than a dirty look from a cop in that burg.

    Some police departments are hardcase idiots. One in Washington state comes to mind from several years ago. OCers had to write complaint after complaint bringing up the law, demanding change in police training. It went on and on for months or perhaps a year. But, finally the message got through. (It might have taken a threat of a lawsuit, I don't recall.)

    So, formal complaints don't always result in immediate gratification, but they head in the direction of solving things. And, can cost a lot less than a lawsuit.
    Last edited by Citizen; 03-04-2013 at 03:05 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: Illegal seisure of gun ?

    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    What if anything can be done about a leo taking your gun after you say you don't consent to an illegal seisure while being nazzi stopped ?
    I'm guessing this is hypothetical?
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I'm guessing this is hypothetical?
    Yes Sir, I see the videos, and the police just egnore the person, when they do not consent to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    The real answer? Not much. Unless you get your law degree or find a lawyer who likes to work for free. Truth of the matter is the civil damages(IF you win)for having your gun "seized" during an OC stop will be nearly non-existent. So how much money would you spend to "make a point" that your rights were violated?

    It's going to cost you at least $2500-$5000 to retain a lawyer(IF you can find one to take the case, that's why I recommended getting your law degree). After you hopefully win the case, you "MIGHT" win the $5000(HIGHLY doubtful) back. So after your lawyer gets his cut of the winnings(40-50%) you break even or LOSE $2500(that's why finding a lawyer who works for free is needed) just to make a point. Some would say "its not about the money" and a true patriot would happily lose $2500 to prove a point. Would that be you?
    File pro se ... is my motto ... $500 is all it costs (except for depositions if you want to depose anyone) ..and maybe $100 for jury fee.

    I file civil cases for MONEY not "to teach them a lesson" ... [...]

    PART OF COMMENT DELETED BY ADMINISTRATOR: Unacceptable on this forum
    Last edited by John Pierce; 03-07-2013 at 08:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    File pro se ... is my motto ... $500 is all it costs (except for depositions if you want to depose anyone) ..and maybe $100 for jury fee.

    I file civil cases for MONEY not "to teach them a lesson" ... PART OF COMMENT DELETED BY ADMINISTRATOR: Unacceptable on this forum
    Can you cite one 42 USC 1983 action filed pro se and won by the plaintiff?? I'd love to see the payout on that.
    Last edited by John Pierce; 03-07-2013 at 08:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    Can you cite one 42 USC 1983 action filed pro se and won by the plaintiff?? I'd love to see the payout on that.
    scot do not read anything david mcbeth writes, he posts all the time about use of violence towards law enforcement and doing illegal activities.

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    Im not sure how much its worth to prove a point. Non gun related but i was very unlawfuly treated by a LEO for a traffic incident years ago and i didnt take any legal action against them. basicaly it was pay the $400 and forget it ever happen or pursue it with threat from court of court fees loss of work etc etc. If i could go back in time i would have taken a loan out just to let the LEO and system know they didnt get away with acting outside the law this time. I think in most cases sadly it comes down to how much $ you have to spend. If more people would pursue and press charges for having our rights trampled on it would be a huge help. JMO

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    Quote Originally Posted by moriar View Post
    scot do not read anything david mcbeth writes, he posts all the time about use of violence towards law enforcement and doing illegal activities.
    That was out of bounds, Moriar.

    I'm not a big fan of McBeth, but:

    1. He does not post all the time about use of violence towards LE. He might post frequently about it, I can't say for sure. But, I can't recall the last time he posted such, so its definitely not "all the time."

    2. Your comment about "doing illegal activities" is a serious accusation. Its a ban-able offense on this forum if repeated. The moderators and owners have exactly zero tolerance for advocating illegal activity. First, I dispute your accusation that he writes such "all the time." And, second, I demand to see your evidence for such a serious accusation.
    Last edited by Citizen; 03-07-2013 at 12:36 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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