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Thread: Petersburg Clerks office at it again.

  1. #1
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    Petersburg Clerks office at it again.

    Like many of you, I OC most of the time, but keep a CHL for those times when OC is not possible or not prudent. Some of you may remember the hassle I went through with the Petersburg Clerk's office 5 years ago. It appears that nothing has changed.

    As my permit is coming up for renewal, I decided to take advantage of the changes in the law over the last few years and renew by mail, within the 90-180 day window so that my new permit will begin when the old one expires. So I sent my notarized application, via certified mail, along with a $50 check to the clerks office. I recieved my return reciept Monday.

    Today, I recieved in the mail, an envelope from the clerks office, containing my application, my check, and a post it note stating "The application has to be taken to the Police Department along with $35 and identification to have background checked." signed by C. Pettiford

    This is the same process they insisted on 5 years ago, when the Clerk told me that the law was written wrong and that his 45 day period did not begin until he received the application from the police dept.

    Right now my plan is to print the applicable laws, highlight the relevant sections, and re-mail the application, along with a brief letter informing them that they are in violation of state law. Again by certified mail. Any other suggestions?
    Last edited by builtjeep; 03-06-2013 at 04:47 PM. Reason: Recieved my return reciept Monday, not friday as I'd originally written. It's was mailed out on Friday.

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    Thumbs down

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  3. #3
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Cool

    Contact Philip Van Cleave for add'l (and likely more practical) suggestions.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
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    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  4. #4
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    I will contact Phillip. I talked to him the last time around with these twits, which ended with me writing a letter to the chief justice of VA's supreme court. My application miraculously got processed and approved the day after I received a response saying he'd look into it.

    This is the letter I plan to send.

    March 6, 2013
    Circuit Court Clerk of Petersburg, VA,


    I mailed the included application for renewal of my Concealed Handgun License to the Clerk's office on 3/1/2013 pursuant to VA 18.2-308 Section D
    “Any person 21 years of age or older may apply in writing to the clerk of the circuit court of the county or city in which he resides, or if he is a member of the United States Armed Forces, the county or city in which he is domiciled, for a five-year permit to carry a concealed handgun.”

    A check in the amount of $50.00 is also included pursuant to VA 18.2-308 Section K
    “The total amount assessed for processing an application for a permit shall not exceed $50, with such fees to be paid in one sum to the person who receives the application.”

    My application was mailed to the Clerk's office on as allowed by
    VA 18.2-308 Section I
    “Persons who previously have held a concealed handgun permit shall be issued, upon application as provided in subsection D, and upon receipt by the circuit court of criminal history record information as provided in subsection D, a new five-year permit unless it is found that the applicant is subject to any of the disqualifications set forth in subsection E. Persons who previously have been issued a concealed handgun permit pursuant to subsection D shall not be required to appear in person to apply for a new five-year permit pursuant to this subsection, and the application for the new permit may be submitted via the United States mail.”

    The Clerks office is not authorized to place any further requirements upon permit applicants under VA 15.2-915. A
    “No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization.”

    I hereby request that my application be processed in accordance with state law.

    Sincerely,

    Builtjeep

    Formatting is off due to copy/paste....any suggestions?
    Last edited by builtjeep; 03-06-2013 at 04:47 PM. Reason: Fixed date

  5. #5
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    They've been through this before, and they know that these requirements are in violation of state law. But with our Mayor being one of Bloomberg's minions this is going to be a huge pita, AGAIN..........

  6. #6
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    VA 18.2-308 Section I
    Persons who previously have held a concealed handgun permit shall be issued, upon application as provided in subsection D, and upon receipt by the circuit court of criminal history record information as provided in subsection D
    Question - is the clerk's office trying to claim that this investigation & expense are your responsibility instead of theirs?
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    That was their claim last time around. Benjamin o. Scott, the clerk at that time, told me that his office did not accept any applications, and that the application must be turned in to the Police Dept. along with $35 for the background check/Fingerprinting. Then once the clerks office received the application from then they called me down to pay an additional $15 for the Clerk's processing. Unfortunately I did not know all of the applicable laws when I started the process back then.

    Now they seem to know the law well enough to not mention fingerprinting, but they are still demanding that the app be turned in, in person, with separate payment, and they are requiring that ID be presented.

    I'm shaking mad in anticipation of the hell that I'm going to have to go through with these idiots. I've been trying to move the hell out of this sewer of a city before I would have to renew.

    Oddly enough, while they took well over 45 days and writing to the state supreme court for my application last time, but my wife's was processed in about 30. I've been told of people getting strung along for 6 months or more in this city according to some of the folks at Dance's sporting goods. But that was a couple of years ago, I'd hoped they'd gotten their a$$*s straight by now.

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    This all sounds very familiar.

    I have a few documents that might be of use to you in explaining in great detail exactly why their policies are unlawful.

  9. #9
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Just a thought, you might want to mention in your letter that their 45 day timer started the day they signed the original return receipt, and you will be there on day 46 to pick up your permit.

    I would almost be tempted to just write that alone. Let them figure out how to do their job on their own. Of course, since they have effectively destroyed your original application (by returning it to you) they are now literally unable to comply with the law.

    Frustrating.

    TFred

    ETA: Interesting question, did they violate the law if they returned your official document without keeping a copy for themselves? Are court clerks legally allowed to essentially destroy official court documents like that?
    Last edited by TFred; 03-06-2013 at 05:39 PM.

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    Interesting question indeed......I'm highly tempted to simply send them a letter stating that they have 45 days to process the application that they received. Still waiting to hear back from Phillip or another VCDL representative as to the best way to proceed.

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    Do they have these additional requirements listed on their web page? Frankly I didn't see anything on there for a CHP permit, but then we lost power before I absolutely scoured the site. Here in VA BH they pull similar schtuff and they actually have the requirements on the City web page. My suggestion is that you search for those requirements and save a copy of the web page for when you have to start working your way up the judicial food chain.

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    PM'd Citizen, User, and VaLitigator. Anyone else I should contact?

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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    Do they have these additional requirements listed on their web page? Frankly I didn't see anything on there for a CHP permit, but then we lost power before I absolutely scoured the site. Here in VA BH they pull similar schtuff and they actually have the requirements on the City web page. My suggestion is that you search for those requirements and save a copy of the web page for when you have to start working your way up the judicial food chain.
    They do not have their requirements posted anywhere that I've been able to find, in fact the last time around the Clerk actually told me outright that he would not put his requirements in writing.

    Perhaps a FOIA request?
    Last edited by builtjeep; 03-06-2013 at 05:53 PM.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    My opinion FWIW, is that since this is round 2 with the exact thing, it may be time to ask the AG's office to open a criminal malfeasance investigation. This is blatant refusal to follow Virginia Law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by builtjeep View Post
    They do not have their requirements posted anywhere that I've been able to find, in fact the last time around the Clerk actually told me outright that he would not put his requirements in writing.

    Perhaps a FOIA request?
    Someone may give a better answer but I would suggest that you ask them to produce the written requirement for anything that they've claimed to be a requirement. A sticky note is note a valid document of those requirements and you don't even have any real proof that the Clerk in fact sent that, vs. a deputy clerk, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tosta Dojen View Post
    This all sounds very familiar.

    I have a few documents that might be of use to you in explaining in great detail exactly why their policies are unlawful.
    Thanks Tosta, I had been meaning to bookmark your doc's just in case.....I guess that case has come.....

    I'm hoping for now that this can be resolved quickly, my time and budget are already stretched thin with my wife out of work and our baby due literally any day now.....Worst timing evar.........

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    My opinion FWIW, is that since this is round 2 with the exact thing, it may be time to ask the AG's office to open a criminal malfeasance investigation. This is blatant refusal to follow Virginia Law.
    That's a good idea, especially since I still have all of my documents etc from the last go 'round.

    I'll send the AG's office an email tomorrow when I can scan some doc's

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    I was just looking through my papers from the first go round and realized that I DID get their application guidelines in the form of an official document. I'll stop by tomorrow afternoon to see if I can get an updated copy since the laws have changed in regards to them having to accept a renewal app by mail. Maybe I'll drop off my app and letter in person to give them one more chance to comply.

    Or not, if i simply stop in and ask for the guidelines for application they aren't going to realize who I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by builtjeep View Post
    I was just looking through my papers from the first go round and realized that I DID get their application guidelines in the form of an official document. I'll stop by tomorrow afternoon to see if I can get an updated copy since the laws have changed in regards to them having to accept a renewal app by mail. Maybe I'll drop off my app and letter in person to give them one more chance to comply.

    Or not, if i simply stop in and ask for the guidelines for application they aren't going to realize who I am.
    Having an updated version of that would be helpful I think (assuming it was updated), because you could then send a letter to the Commonwealth Attorney citing that document and asking them to provide in writing the legal basis (the specific Code of Virginia cite) that they have for claiming that they have a right to do this. My guess is that they will say "because we say so" equivalent, but as I've done this with VA BH I have a nice, non-answer in writing that can be used at some point.

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    I'll give the clerk a call tomorrow.

    We may have to do a writ of mandamus on this. First I'll talk to the clerk and see if this can be resolved the easy way or not.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCDL President View Post
    We may have to do a writ of mandamus on this. First I'll talk to the clerk and see if this can be resolved the easy way or not.
    I wish I could be a fly on the wall watching the clerk during that phone call. These kinds of folks aren't used to talking to people who can say things like, "We have the resources AND are perfectly willing to file suit over this, it's entirely up to you..."



    TFred

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    Re: Petersburg Clerks office at it again.

    Thanks Philip. my phone number is in the pm I sent if you need to contact me. I will scan documents tomorrow to send to whomever may need them.

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Just a thought, you might want to mention in your letter that their 45 day timer started the day they signed the original return receipt, and you will be there on day 46 to pick up your permit.

    I would almost be tempted to just write that alone. Let them figure out how to do their job on their own. Of course, since they have effectively destroyed your original application (by returning it to you) they are now literally unable to comply with the law.

    Frustrating.

    TFred

    ETA: Interesting question, did they violate the law if they returned your official document without keeping a copy for themselves? Are court clerks legally allowed to essentially destroy official court documents like that?
    Not sure if that would work, or give you standing to pursue other remedies, but I like it.
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    Still waiting to hear back from Phillip before I proceed with anything else. I will be stopping by to ask for their guidelines on CHL application on my way home though.

  25. #25
    Regular Member celticredneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by builtjeep View Post
    Like many of you, I OC most of the time, but keep a CHL for those times when OC is not possible or not prudent. Some of you may remember the hassle I went through with the Petersburg Clerk's office 5 years ago. It appears that nothing has changed.

    As my permit is coming up for renewal, I decided to take advantage of the changes in the law over the last few years and renew by mail, within the 90-180 day window so that my new permit will begin when the old one expires. So I sent my notarized application, via certified mail, along with a $50 check to the clerks office. I recieved my return reciept Monday.

    Today, I recieved in the mail, an envelope from the clerks office, containing my application, my check, and a post it note stating "The application has to be taken to the Police Department along with $35 and identification to have background checked." signed by C. Pettiford

    This is the same process they insisted on 5 years ago, when the Clerk told me that the law was written wrong and that his 45 day period did not begin until he received the application from the police dept.

    Right now my plan is to print the applicable laws, highlight the relevant sections, and re-mail the application, along with a brief letter informing them that they are in violation of state law. Again by certified mail. Any other suggestions?
    I see that Petersburg is still Petersburg. I hope that you will be able to find somewhere else as soon after the baby as possible. I'll probably give you a call either tonight or tomorrow.
    You can't fix stupid, but you can vote it out of office

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