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Thread: Hidden Camera Video: stopped for matching suspect descriptin while CCing

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    Regular Member 509rifas's Avatar
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    Hidden Camera Video: stopped for matching suspect descriptin while CCing

    This is something I'd always been afraid of: looking like a suspect while carrying all my gear (gun, knife, flashlight, extra mag, camera, etc) and dealing with trying to explain it. While in a "gang neighborhood," being in your 20s, etc.
    I was stopped about 12:30 or 1 am for ostensibly matching the description of a suspect.
    It was an overall OK encounter.
    For those of you that will tell me that I could have asserted my rights at the moment the dispatch asked if I was "blonde, first of James" and they knew I had a CPL, I realize that. (it was after they ran the gun.)
    He barely had the CPL before they called in with the next call and they gave me my stuff back in a hurry. I'm pretty sure the two officers were the entire shift in my town at the time. If not, there was one other (judging by what I can hear in the background for the radio transmissions.)

    And please, before anyone says anything about them stopping me for being a "white male," I realize that is not RAS, but there are not many white males in my neighborhood. (According to statistics I've found through electoral stuff, my area is 10% white. So as far as the police's motives are concerned, it would be like if they got a call that a black male was prowling a house three blocks from where they ran into black male at 1 a.m. in Mercer Island, he'd be lucky to not get tazed (until they get the description of "bald, first of James" and the guy they have is dreadlocks, first of something else.) Both of the officers were white. I live in a primarily Chicano neighborhood in a primarily Chicano agricultural town. I don't feel infringed upon for being white. The officer did ask where I was coming from, and I answered "12th Street" and the incident was at 9th St which gave them me in the are. In the future I may decline to tell them where I was coming from because "last time I did that I ended up in handcuffs and it turned our I was the wrong guy", but I don't believe there was misconduct here. The only reason I'm going on about this is I remember extreme jerk-ish views from a number of angles when I was here before and I would like to pre-empt those and just focus on what happened.
    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-nqPRGgh9a8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
    I can't seem to embed, se here is the link:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nqPRGgh9a8
    This happened in mid Feb 2013.

    Here is one that happened about two weeks after that. A surprisingly positive experience.
    http://youtu.be/LhWC0k3IoTU
    Last edited by 509rifas; 03-09-2013 at 08:52 PM. Reason: bad humor

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    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
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    Hidden Camera Video: stopped for matching suspect descriptin while CCing

    What they did is racist. The only real description they had was white male. They stopped you because you were white. Everything was based on race. That is racist.

    Ask yourself how they would've handled the situation if the description was "a black male". Same thing!
    Last edited by Bookman; 03-07-2013 at 09:36 AM.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    What they did is racist. The only real description they had was white male. They stopped you because you were white. Everything was based on race. That is racist.

    Ask yourself how they would've handled the situation if the description was "a black male". Same thing!
    I wouldn't say racist. After reading about cops and the problems in the policing industry for six years, I would say he was seized on a fishing expedition. If the call had been about a suspect of a different race, another person of that different race would have been seized and fished.

    The pretext was "matching the description". You can't possibly match a description if there is only one characteristic--in this case being white. The problem isn't with the word match--white is white. The problem is that one or two characteristics is not an adequate description to go around seizing people. Unless the person is described as having some very unusual characteristic like wearing an Easter bunny costume, one or two characteristics is nowhere near enough to identify an individual--to single him out from most other people.

    "He was white and wearing jeans." "We got him, Sarge!" "That's the mayor, you idiot!"

    I've read too many reports of police claiming the detainee "matched the description" when the description only had a few characteristics that would come no where near distinguishing the suspect. Some of those reports were in court cases where the appellate courts rejected the seizure. Some cops seem to want to bolster their argument by focusing on the word match, hoping nobody will look too close at the adequacy of the description. Basically its just another form of lying. Call it deliberate misdirection.
    Last edited by Citizen; 03-07-2013 at 10:03 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    That is racist.
    Then you don't know what racism is.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Very good in the second Vid. (Curious as to which camera you are using?)

    The first vid is just wrong. A white male is not enough to stop every white male in the area. From what we heard on the audio they had a prowler in the front yard... not sure if there is enough evidence of a crime being committed. The caller could of just seen someone retrieving a baseball from the yard, or any other innocent act....

    Personally, I would follow up with a complaint. Yes, you did voluntarily give up some rights, but that does not excuse their behavior... I believe they overstepped their "Terry Stop" bounds....
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member rapgood's Avatar
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    A person's presence in a high-crime area at a “late hour” does not, by itself, give rise to a reasonable suspicion to detain that person. State v. Ellwood, 52 Wn. App. 70, 74, 757 P.2d 547 (1988) (citing Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. at 21-22). Similarly, a person's “mere proximity to others independently suspected of criminal activity does not justify the stop.” State v. Thompson, 93 Wn.2d 838, 841, 613 P.2d 525 (1980). A traffic stop is a seizure for purposes of constitutional analysis. State v. Ladson, 138 Wn.2d 343, 350, 979 P.2d 833 (1999).
    Rev. Robert Apgood, Esq.

    A right cannot be lost by exercising it. McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025, 130 S. Ct. 3020, 3021, 177 L. Ed. 2d 894 (2010) (citing Near v. Minn., 283 U.S. 697 (1931)).

    Although IAAL, anything I say here is not legal advice. No conversations we may have privately or otherwise in this forum constitute the formation of an attorney-client relationship, and are not intended to do so.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Which Agency stopped you?

    As far as I can tell the description the officers told you about would not be adequate, just being a white guy should not be PC.... now if it was white guy 5'7'' 200 pounds with brown hair and you happen to meet that description then maybe.... but not just being white....

    "it's probably not you, so we're going to run your gun and send you on your way"

    huh? my response would've been "well that sounds like I'm not a suspect anymore, I want my gun now and I'd like to go on my way"
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Regular Member 509rifas's Avatar
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    Does anyone happen to know the case law that says when they activate their lights it is a detention because a normal person would not feel free to leave? I read it in the news a couple years ago, can't find it now.
    The officer hit the lights before he spoke with me.

    I'm declining to state what agency it was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 509rifas View Post
    I'm declining to state what agency it was.
    HMMM did this really happen to our troll suspect?

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    Regular Member 509rifas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger Dr View Post
    HMMM did this really happen to our troll suspect?
    Are you always this paranoid or do you just have a weird sense of humor? You think I used actors? Maybe I'm a UN spy sent to spy on and expose OCers as naughty naughty men?


    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    As far as I can tell the description the officers told you about would not be adequate, just being a white guy should not be PC.... now if it was white guy 5'7'' 200 pounds with brown hair and you happen to meet that description then maybe.... but not just being white...
    True. I don't know what the full description given to the officers was though. Definitely not PC, there is at least a case for good faith but mistaken RAS. He hit the lights and ordered me to put my hands on the vehicle a little early.

    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    I've read too many reports of police claiming the detainee "matched the description" when the description only had a few characteristics that would come no where near distinguishing the suspect. Some of those reports were in court cases where the appellate courts rejected the seizure. Some cops seem to want to bolster their argument by focusing on the word match, hoping nobody will look too close at the adequacy of the description.
    Do you happen to know what any of those cases are?
    Last edited by 509rifas; 03-07-2013 at 08:19 PM. Reason: misattributed

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Just a friendly tip, in your last post you quoted trigger doctor, then put statements from me and another user in quotes under that with no attribution, gives the impression that trigger doctor said the other two quoted statements which is misattribution and against forum rules... just a heads up.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Wink

    [QUOTE=509rifas;1909001]Are you always this paranoid or do you just have a weird sense of humor? You think I used actors? Maybe I'm a UN spy sent to spy on and expose OCers as naughty naughty men?

    No, not paranoid, I just am doubtful of anyone who had an encounter with PD, that had the ear marks of a bad stop. Not wanting to ID the pd makes me wonder why not? It would be of benefit to the rest of us in the event we should happen upon the same PD.
    Maybe you are working with the PD to find out what we would do in a similar circumstance. There are many more reasons that the PD should be identified than not.
    I do wonder if you are sincere or a troll. Maybe a sincere troll.

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    Regular Member 509rifas's Avatar
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    You win, Sunnyside.

    First video is S162 and S137, communicating with S145. Second video is S159.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 509rifas View Post
    You win, Sunnyside.

    First video is S162 and S137, communicating with S145. Second video is S159.
    What the hell does that mean?
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Regular Member 509rifas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    What the hell does that mean?
    Badge numbers.

    Sunnyside is a city. In Washington.
    Last edited by 509rifas; 03-07-2013 at 06:03 PM.

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    Regular Member 509rifas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Just a friendly tip, in your last post you quoted trigger doctor, then put statements from me and another user in quotes under that with no attribution, gives the impression that trigger doctor said the other two quoted statements which is misattribution and against forum rules... just a heads up.
    Sorry, the quoty thingy is different than it used to be. Won't happen again.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 509rifas View Post
    Badge numbers.

    Sunnyside is a city. In Washington.
    Ah, Got it.

    thanks.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    WA LEO Digest, The Law Enforcement Digest is prepared by Ms. Shannon Inglis of the Washington State Attorney General's Office as a service to criminal justice practitioners. Each month Ms. Inglis selects court cases she feels are significant to the law enforcement community.

    https://fortress.wa.gov/cjtc/www/ima...202%202012.pdf


    State v. Gantt, 163 Wn. App. 133 (Div. III, 2011) Nov. ’11 LED:10 (Turning on overhead flashers and asking person near to and apparently associated with vehicle to explain his presence was seizure); State v. Stroud, 30 Wn. App. 392 (Div. II, 1981) Feb. '82 LED:05 (Turning on overhead flashers was a seizure)

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Was that a coors light on the hood of the car?
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    The other thing....

    it doesn't appear there was allegation that the OP actually violated a law.

    "prowling" may be a suspicious activity, but unless he's prowling on their private property it's not a crime... even then second degree trespass is only a misdemeanor and it's unlikely one would go to jail for a first time misdemeanor....

    so not only was it a bad detention, it wasn't even a detention on nessecarily violating the law...
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    The other thing....

    it doesn't appear there was allegation that the OP actually violated a law.

    "prowling" may be a suspicious activity, but unless he's prowling on their private property it's not a crime... even then second degree trespass is only a misdemeanor and it's unlikely one would go to jail for a first time misdemeanor....

    so not only was it a bad detention, it wasn't even a detention on nessecarily violating the law...
    No, no, no.

    Police need leeway to do the job the public expects.

    And, Terry doctrine makes it clear police can evaluate situations in light of their experience with criminals.

    So, under a certain poster's recent rationale, this was a valid stop because police need leeway. And, since prowling is the early stage of burglary, breaking into cars, and stealing lawn clippings, this was clearly both a legal stop and a stop for which the cops had valid suspicion of crime.*

    /sarcasm



    *Actually, since cops seem always on the prowl, the suspected offense was probably impersonating a police officer. / more sarcasm
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
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    Hidden Camera Video: stopped for matching suspect descriptin while CCing

    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Then you don't know what racism is.
    It would be if he was a black man.

    --Sarcasm off--
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

  23. #23
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    No, no, no.

    Police need leeway to do the job the public expects.

    And, Terry doctrine makes it clear police can evaluate situations in light of their experience with criminals.

    So, under a certain poster's recent rationale, this was a valid stop because police need leeway. And, since prowling is the early stage of burglary, breaking into cars, and stealing lawn clippings, this was clearly both a legal stop and a stop for which the cops had valid suspicion of crime.*

    /sarcasm



    *Actually, since cops seem always on the prowl, the suspected offense was probably impersonating a police officer. / more sarcasm
    Now. I'm starting to feel itchy from all this straw.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Now. I'm starting to feel itchy from all this straw.
    No problem. With all the leeway certain posters want police to have, they'll be able to detain twice the usual number of suspects* for you.



    *From one of the early lines in the movie Casablanca. Vichy Capt. Renault is talking to German Major Strasser about finding the killer of the courier, promising to round up lots of people to question them about the murder and try to recover the letter of transit/exit visa taken from the dead courier. The implication being Renault didn't give a rip whether he was detaining and questioning innocent people.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  25. #25
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Now. I'm starting to feel itchy from all this straw.
    Straw would be putting forth an argument you didn't make and arguing that as if you did........he put forth arguments you have made........remember you feel it's just a slight inconvenience you feel is acceptable.

    I hope it doesn't happen to you Eric, but someday you actually might have an encounter that opens your eyes to the nature of "control".
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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