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Thread: So you are sitting in your University law class and.............

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Question So you are sitting in your University law class and.............

    http://seattletimes.com/html/localne...cidentxml.html

    Seattle police said the man was talking incoherently and turned over tables and other classroom furniture.
    A man who took over a Seattle University law-school classroom Wednesday afternoon and frightened students with his bizarre behavior was later arrested by Seattle police on suspicion of trespassing.
    Several students said his behavior was so unsettling that they thought he was going to pull a gun or become violent. They also said they were disappointed at the slow response from campus public-safety officers.
    You are 21, have a CPL...... You do what?


    p.s. Seattle U policy is here..... http://www.seattleu.edu/policies/ (not a crime)
    Last edited by gogodawgs; 03-07-2013 at 08:46 PM.
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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    http://seattletimes.com/html/localne...cidentxml.html





    You are 21, have a CPL...... You do what?
    well if the U had a no-gun policy and I was carrying in violation of said policy while having however many thousands of dollars invested in tuition at that school, It would strongly depend. but the article states the individual only said "bang" and stuck his hands in his coat..... I dunno heavily fact dependent. At the college I attend now students face immediate expulsion for carrying a gun on campus unless they're an off-duty police officer. so i'll break it down to two scenarios

    1) he's looking at me while putting his hands in his coat like he has a gun, at this point consequences be damned he's looking down the duty end of mine

    2)he's looking away, from me threatening someone else, I'll place my hand on grip of pistol, not yet exposing it but making sure it's ready to fire (probably thumb cocking the hammer too) and assess, if he pulls a weapon, so do I, if he doesn't, I don't and make reasonable attempts to get to a better tactical position.


    *The policy sounds dumb, the LEO exemption is written as "in the performance of duties" why does whether or not the LEO is in uniform matter? do they become untrustworthy once they clock out?

    "federal permit" what exactly is that? does anyone happen to have a "federal permit" to carry a firearm? other then Federal Agent credentials?
    Last edited by EMNofSeattle; 03-07-2013 at 08:56 PM.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    First off if you are carrying that is a mute point, nothing in the article rose to the level of a threat of great bodily harm or death so the use of a firearm is not justified.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Hayes View Post
    First off if you are carrying that is a mute point, nothing in the article rose to the level of a threat of great bodily harm or death so the use of a firearm is not justified.
    Running around yelling while turning over furniture isn't reasonable fear of grave bodily harm?

    The article implied students feared he would pull a gun. what would lead to that kind of fear? if he's turning over furniture then sticks his hand into his pocket or a jacket that should be all the reasonable fear required to use force against him.

    RCW 9A.16.020
    Use of force — When lawful.


    The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases...........

    (3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary...........
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    [QUOTE=EMNofSeattle;1909090]Running around yelling while turning over furniture isn't reasonable fear of grave bodily harm?


    UMMM........................... NO unless of course you are furniture.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Jeff Hayes;1909118]
    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Running around yelling while turning over furniture isn't reasonable fear of grave bodily harm?


    UMMM........................... NO unless of course you are furniture.
    It is if the subject is moving their hands into their clothing where weapons would normally be kept. or the movements were combined with threat of force against another individual.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Depending on where I was sitting in the room...
    Get out [good reason to sit near the door]
    Encourage others to leave
    Throw things at the guy (once he started being threatening)
    Tackle the guy (ditto)
    Call 911 (cell reception nonexistant in the basement classroom)
    Can't do anything really useful 'cause the campus is a "weapons-free zone"

    they were disappointed at the slow response from campus public-safety officers
    Well, gee, maybe now people will see the sense behind letting people carry on campus!
    It says they "only" had to wait a minute for the campus security people to get there.
    How many rounds can you fire in a minute?

    thought he was going to pull a gun or become violent
    So he wasn't violent, just turning over furniture?
    And that was only after he'd been asked to leave, and refused, & the prof hit the panic button because of that (before he became violent)??
    Good grief, what kind of whimps do they raise out there?
    About 50 people in the room, and all they could think to do was hit the panic button?

    Of course, it doesn't look like their campus security people are much better...:
    The suspect... was being followed by Seattle U security officers when Seattle police arrived
    That's gonna keep the campus real safe.

    [some students] believed the school should have instituted a lockdown and sent out a campuswide warning
    For someone interrupting a class & acting bizzarely?

    students hastily packed up their laptops and backpacks and left the room

    If their lives were really in danger, they should have left. Don't pack up, don't grab anything, LEAVE.
    Read this piece by Kathy Jackson.
    It talks about how people get stuck in socially acceptable rules, & even when their lives might be in danger by obeying them, they still obey.

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    that is a mute (sic) point
    Moot. The point is moot.
    Last edited by deanf; 03-08-2013 at 12:16 AM.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Running around yelling while turning over furniture isn't reasonable fear of grave bodily harm?

    The article implied students feared he would pull a gun. what would lead to that kind of fear? if he's turning over furniture then sticks his hand into his pocket or a jacket that should be all the reasonable fear required to use force against him.

    RCW 9A.16.020
    Use of force — When lawful.


    The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases...........

    (3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary...........
    Again when reading the RCW you are quoting it also must be in the context of 9A.16.010 Definitions (1) "Necessary" means that no reasonably effective alternative to the use of force appeared to exist and that the amount of force used was reasonable to effect the lawful purpose intended.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Hayes View Post
    First off if you are carrying that is a mute point, nothing in the article rose to the level of a threat of great bodily harm or death so the use of a firearm is not justified.
    +1 and don't you get use to that! either! lol
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Regular Member bmg50cal's Avatar
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    SEATTLE UNIVERSITY
    FIREARMS AND WEAPONS POLICY

    Seattle University is committed to ensuring a safe and secure environment for the
    University community. This policy is a proactive step towards reducing the risk of
    injury or death associated with intentional or accidental use of firearms and weapons.

    Policy

    All members of the Seattle University community, including faculty, staff, students and
    visitors are prohibited from possessing, discharging, or otherwise using firearms,
    explosives or weapons (“weapons”) on University premises without the expressed
    authorization of the Director of Campus Public Safety, whether or not the person has
    been issued a federal or state license to possess such weapons.

    All members of the Seattle University community are also prohibited from possessing
    weapons while working or attending University or University-related events, whether or
    not the event is on University premises.
    Any person violating this policy will be subject to disciplinary action including but not
    limited to suspension, expulsion, termination, removal from University premises or
    events and/or criminal prosecution.
    Suspected violations of this policy should be reported immediately to the Department of
    Campus Public Safety at (206) 296-5911.

    Exceptions

    The following exceptions apply to this policy:

    • Commissioned law enforcement officers in performance of their official duties.
    • Military personnel in performance of their official duties.
    • Armored vehicle guards.
    • An individual using or possessing a weapon in connection with a scheduled
    educational, recreational or training program or activity authorized in writing by
    the Director of Campus Public Safety and under the supervision of a University
    employee.
    • Additional exceptions to this policy may be requested in writing to the Director of
    Campus Public Safety. The Director will review requests on a case-by-case basis
    with University Counsel.

    Definitions

    • Firearm – Any device that shoots a bullet, pellet, flare, tranquilizer, dart, or
    other projectile, whether loaded or unloaded, including those powered by CO2.
    This includes but is not limited to guns, air guns, dart guns, pistols, revolvers,
    rifles, shot guns, cannons, and any ammunition for any such device.

    • Weapon – Any device that is designed to or traditionally used to inflict serious
    bodily injury. This includes but is not limited to:

    • Firearms, slingshots, switchblades, daggers, swords, blackjacks,
    brass knuckles, bows and arrows, tasers, hand grenades, knives
    with blades three (3) inches or longer, nunchucks, and throwing
    stars; or
    • Any object that could be reasonably construed as a weapon; or
    • Any object legally controlled as a weapon or treated as a weapon
    under the law.

    • Explosives – Any dangerous chemicals, substances, mixtures or compounds
    capable of or intended to cause injury to another, or possessed in negligent
    disregard for the safety of self and others. This includes but is not limited to
    firecrackers, gunpowder and dynamite.
    SEADOCS:336004.2
    Yep pretty crappy just like most of the other schools... I may return to school and put that G.I bill to use.

    Message obscured to protect the innocent.

    0011000100110111001101010011001000
    1110000011100100110100001100000110
    0011001110010011010100110000001100
    0101100011011000010011011100110110
    0011100001100001001101100011011100
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    110011010001100001

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    EMN, please take the time to understand use of force....

    BigDave has it....

    Jeff, spot on.... reading an comprehending what is happening and understanding use of force, what is necessary is important.



    I would take cover and evaluate.... no weapon is alleged.
    Live Free or Die!

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    [QUOTE=EMNofSeattle;1909153]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Hayes View Post

    It is if the subject is moving their hands into their clothing where weapons would normally be kept. or the movements were combined with threat of force against another individual.
    Keys and cell phones are also normally kept in pockets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Moot. The point is moot.
    Right you are, my bad.

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    If their lives were really in danger, they should have left. Don't pack up, don't grab anything, LEAVE.

    Exactly

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Good grief, what kind of whimps do they raise out there?
    The same kind that let a guy cut his girlfriends head off in a cafeteria in Virginia Tech.......generation of victims...



    [QUOTE=Jeff Hayes;1909118]
    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Running around yelling while turning over furniture isn't reasonable fear of grave bodily harm?


    UMMM........................... NO unless of course you are furniture.
    +1
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    EMN, please take the time to understand use of force....

    BigDave has it....

    Jeff, spot on.... reading an comprehending what is happening and understanding use of force, what is necessary is important.



    I would take cover and evaluate.... no weapon is alleged.
    Now that I'm re-reading the article I'm going to apologize to Jeff and admit he was right.

    The first time I read it I had already head a radio spot about the incident that implied the man directly threatened he had a gun, which as we now know was incorrect, yes under the circumstances listed in the article use of force, at least to the firearm degree is not yet justified
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    [QUOTE=EMNofSeattle;1909245]Now that I'm re-reading the article I'm going to apologize to Jeff and admit he was right.

    No need to apologize, this is what these discussions are for. Learn from this so that you do not make a mistake you will regret. Remember many others will read this and never comment but they will have learned as well.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Now that I'm re-reading the article I'm going to apologize to Jeff and admit he was right.

    The first time I read it I had already head a radio spot about the incident that implied the man directly threatened he had a gun, which as we now know was incorrect, yes under the circumstances listed in the article use of force, at least to the firearm degree is not yet justified
    What people should be considering in light of this story is...

    Where do you sit in class, a restaurant, movie theater?

    Where is the nearest exit?

    Where is the nearest cover?

    Do you carry pepper spray?

    Do you approach the person and restrain them?
    Live Free or Die!

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    What people should be considering in light of this story is...

    Where do you sit in class, a restaurant, movie theater?

    Where is the nearest exit?

    Where is the nearest cover?

    Do you carry pepper spray?

    Do you approach the person and restrain them?

    This is what most forums and people when discussing self defense bypass and go
    directly to the last resort, the gun...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    What people should be considering in light of this story is...

    Where do you sit in class, a restaurant, movie theater?

    Where is the nearest exit?

    Where is the nearest cover?

    Do you carry pepper spray?

    Do you approach the person and restrain them?

    +1

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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    What people should be considering in light of this story is...

    Where do you sit in class, a restaurant, movie theater?

    Where is the nearest exit?

    Where is the nearest cover?

    Do you carry pepper spray?

    Do you approach the person and restrain them?
    I always consider most of these things every time I sit down somewhere. It has become second nature almost.
    I Am Not A Lawyer, verify all facts presented independently.

    It's called the "American Dream" because you have to be asleep to believe it. - George Carlin

    I carry a spare tire, in case I have a flat. I carry life insurance, in case I die. I carry a gun, in case I need it.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    I always consider most of these things every time I sit down somewhere. It has become second nature almost.
    Many of you have sat with me at coffee or a restaurant and know that I will almost certainly have the most advantagous view of the room.

    Some of you have seen me put my hand over my daughter's eyes and ask them where the nearest exits are and blindfolded they can tell you. It was second nature long ago when I grew up and it is now for my girls. I encourage others to do the same with your spouse and children.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Many of you have sat with me at coffee or a restaurant and know that I will almost certainly have the most advantagous view of the room.

    Some of you have seen me put my hand over my daughter's eyes and ask them where the nearest exits are and blindfolded they can tell you. It was second nature long ago when I grew up and it is now for my girls. I encourage others to do the same with your spouse and children.
    One time when I was quite young my cousins and I were making jokes about the blind, so our Uncle challenged us to be blindfolded most of a day. It was a great learning moment, One cousin and I lasted most the day. The things you can learn by covering up your eyes for a while is amazing. And because of that experience I don't turn on lights at night and walk my house blind as much as I can. It is a good thing to know your areas, without sight.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    But when there's a group of OCers they should position to cover each other's blind spots. at Fed Way Nick does sit so he can watch the main door, but the back door to the starbucks (which was unlocked when I was there at least) was at Nick's back. I think a smart active shooter at least will pop in through the back door to catch more people unaware.... so when there's a group one person should be facing each threat direction....
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

    NRA Member

  25. #25
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Running around yelling while turning over furniture isn't reasonable fear of grave bodily harm?

    ..
    If that was all the justification needed then a good number of late night Party Goer's in Seattle could be legally shot.

    Answer here is "LEAVE". If he follows, and attacks, then you'd be justified in Self Defense.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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