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Thread: Has Zimmerman Waived His Right to a Pre-Trial "Stand-Your-Ground" Hearing?

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    Regular Member Law of Self Defense's Avatar
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    Has Zimmerman Waived His Right to a Pre-Trial "Stand-Your-Ground" Hearing?

    I've seen a tsunami of headlines by the mainstream media this past week about how George Zimmerman has allegedly waived his right to a pre-trial "Stand-Your-Ground" hearing, and speculation on their part that this is yet "another" sign of how desperately week his self defense case is.

    As usual, the mainstream media have it completely wrong, on every count.

    First, Zimmerman didn't waive anything, he simply let a tentatively assigned date for the hearing go, so the court knew it could use that date for other purposes. He's still free to make a motion for the pre-trial hearing at a later date (subject, as always, to the judge's discretion, but Judge Nelson in the video I've seen certainly seems favorably inclined to such a motion). The actual trial isn't scheduled to begin until June 10. (In the same video one case see the prosecution flailing desperately to have the record reflect some kind of "waiver" by Zimmerman on the issue, but the judge clearly shuts that down.)

    Second, the prosecution doesn't seem to really know what it's talking about. Although they refer to the pre-trial hearing as a "Stand-Your-Ground" hearing, there is no such thing under Florida law. Instead, the pre-trial hearing is to ascertain whether Zimmerman qualifies under Florida's self-defense immunity statute. If he does, the charges against him would be immediately dismissed (and, incidentally, he would be immunized against civil claims, as well). When the prosecution can't keep its statutes and pre-trial hearings straight, it doesn't exactly make me think they've got the upper hand on the defense.

    Third, there are good strategic reasons why the defense might wish to delay the pre-trial hearing or even to wait until the actual trial to make a motion for self defense immunity, so any such delay or even a "waiver" of the pre-trial hearing does not mean the defense is necessarily weak. For example, it's pretty common knowledge that the prosecution has been "slow-rolling" the defense on discovery matters, and when that's the case it's usually in the best interests of the defense to delay as long as possible, so that they can collect as much discovery as possible, before the "shooting" part of the legal battle begins.

    Anyway, I was just completely astonished at how badly the mainstream media had read this thing (although I know I shouldn't have been, it's not like they get much else right, and they want Zimmerman to be found guilty so bad they can taste it), and I thought it might be worthwhile to throw in some informed two-cents, for those who are interested.

    For those interested in the legal details backing up everything I've stated above, feel free to take a look at my blog entry on it, which includes all relevant cases and statutes, and even some video of the judge smacking down the prosecution. The blog post can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/d8nyb5a

    Andrew

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Welcome to OCDO Law of Self Defense . May we presume you are the author of the book of the same title?

    This has been a high profile, very interesting case from the beginning and hanging Zimmerman high sells more copy.

    The wheels of justice turn slowly.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Law of Self Defense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Welcome to OCDO Law of Self Defense . May we presume you are the author of the book of the same title?
    Of course, as the user name makes explicit, I would think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    This has been a high profile, very interesting case from the beginning and hanging Zimmerman high sells more copy.
    I presume you're referring now to the mainstream media, and not my own post. Personally, I believe Zimmerman is being politically railroaded, by both the prosecution and the mainstream media. Certainly I'm not trying to "hang Zimmerman high".

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The wheels of justice turn slowly.
    Not all that slowly. Zimmerman's trial is scheduled to begin June 10, roughly three months from now. It's true the prosecution has slowed discovery down as much as they can--who wants to go over the cliff any sooner than necessary?--but if this had been a civil case we'd likely be years away from any kind of jury verdict.

    In any case, I expect we'll know the outcome of the trial before the end of summer. If it goes to appeal, within two years of end of summer.

    Andrew

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law of Self Defense View Post
    SNIP Anyway, I was just completely astonished at how badly the mainstream media had read this thing (although I know I shouldn't have been, it's not like they get much else right, and they want Zimmerman to be found guilty so bad they can taste it), and I thought it might be worthwhile to throw in some informed two-cents, for those who are interested.
    This is the same media that breathlessly link Zimmerman's case to Castle Doctrine even though the incident happened outdoors and well off the property where either lived.

    Don't be astonished. Whenever considering the activities of the lamestream media, just think of the hyenas in the first Lion King--lots of pack, not much brains.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Regular Member Talesman's Avatar
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    FWIW, both Mr. Zimmerman's original lawyer and his current lawyer have stated to the press that they are not going to use Florida's SYG law. It is a clear case of self-defense and they are sticking with that.

    I am not going to second guess the defense strategy in that area. What I will opine about is that were I the judge currently handling the case is that I would have jailed the prosecutor in the case along with her minions for a few days, here and there, for flagrantly violating rules of procedure along with edicts of the court - just to get their attention.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Law of Self Defense View Post
    Of course, as the user name makes explicit, I would think.

    I presume you're referring now to the mainstream media, and not my own post. Personally, I believe Zimmerman is being politically railroaded, by both the prosecution and the mainstream media. Certainly I'm not trying to "hang Zimmerman high".

    Not all that slowly. Zimmerman's trial is scheduled to begin June 10, roughly three months from now. It's true the prosecution has slowed discovery down as much as they can--who wants to go over the cliff any sooner than necessary?--but if this had been a civil case we'd likely be years away from any kind of jury verdict.

    In any case, I expect we'll know the outcome of the trial before the end of summer. If it goes to appeal, within two years of end of summer.

    Andrew
    Purpose was to make others aware of your authorship and maybe read your book. I didn't conclude anything but that you were supportive of Zimmerman.

    Speedy trials and swift justice are relative terms, particularly when you are the defendant. Have the hope that this will move into a civil suit and ultimately benefit Zimmerman.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Its incredible to me that he was even charged in the first place. They had to dig deep to find someone that dumb and politically motivated to charge him. Having your head bashed on the concrete is more than enough "jeopardy of death or great bodily harm" for anyone.

    What is disturbing though is the case of Trevor Dooley if you are familiar with that one. Unless there is something I don't know about the circumstance, I can't see how his case was not self-defense yet a Florida jury was somehow convinced to convict him of manslaughter (possibly via judicial or prosecutorial misconduct I would think).

    Of course in relation to Zimmerman, thanks for the efforts of Sharpton, Jackson and MSNBC when the trial is over its forecast a 50% chance of riots. A certainty if Zimmerman is found not guilty.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxxon View Post
    --snip--

    Of course in relation to Zimmerman, thanks for the efforts of Sharpton, Jackson and MSNBC when the trial is over its forecast a 50% chance of riots. A certainty if Zimmerman is found not guilty.
    Some how I sincerely doubt that.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Has Zimmerman Waived His Right to a Pre-Trial "Stand-Your-Ground" Hearing?

    If Zimmerman is acquitted, I expect riots.

    We are a hair-trigger away from an apocalyptic breakdown. Who knows what will be that trigger.


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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    If Zimmerman is acquitted, I expect riots.

    We are a hair-trigger away from an apocalyptic breakdown. Who knows what will be that trigger.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

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    agreed
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    If Zimmerman is acquitted, I expect riots.

    We are a hair-trigger away from an apocalyptic breakdown. Who knows what will be that trigger.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

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    I don't know that I expect riots; but, I wouldn't be surprised. Certainly, the forces of ignorance demagogued this one heavily.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    If Zimmerman is acquitted, I expect riots.

    We are a hair-trigger away from an apocalyptic breakdown. Who knows what will be that trigger.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

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    Certaining hope that you are wrong.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Certaining hope that you are wrong.
    I hope so too. However, history has told us that trials that don't go the way the race-baiters want, whether justly or unjustly, result in riots. Also, the media have played into the race-baiters by portraying Martin as some innocent teen, not as a thug overreacting to a cop-wannabe.

    This case is ripe for exploitation. The only question is whether the exploitation won't go both ways, and the whole damned thing erupts. This whole country is a powder-keg, and the Zimmerman case is a match.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxxon View Post
    Its incredible to me that he was even charged in the first place. They had to dig deep to find someone that dumb and politically motivated to charge him. Having your head bashed on the concrete is more than enough "jeopardy of death or great bodily harm" for anyone.

    What is disturbing though is the case of Trevor Dooley if you are familiar with that one. Unless there is something I don't know about the circumstance, I can't see how his case was not self-defense yet a Florida jury was somehow convinced to convict him of manslaughter (possibly via judicial or prosecutorial misconduct I would think).

    Of course in relation to Zimmerman, thanks for the efforts of Sharpton, Jackson and MSNBC when the trial is over its forecast a 50% chance of riots. A certainty if Zimmerman is found not guilty.
    It's funny, because I don't see how he couldn't be charged with manslaughter at the very least. Since they day I took up carrying a gun the one thing I was certain of was that if I initiated a physical confrontation with someone (not meaning if I swung first, but rather if I chose to escalate instead of walk away) while armed I was likely to be in very very big trouble. Anyone carrying a firearm who doesn't think so is an idiot and should leave their guns at home, if you are armed you are effectively required to take a LOT of **** and walk away. If you don't have the balls to do so then you should not be armed. Zimmerman has admitted to stalking and assaulting Martin (read the Florida statues closely, his statements to the dispatcher and statements to the police indicate he did both) in the minutes leading up to Martin's death. His statements also indicate he was doing all this for no justifiable reason at all, having witnessed no criminal, or even suspicious, activity. A police officer seeing the same thing wouldn't have RAS, let alone PC.

    One of the biggest issues with the Martin murder is that there is a massive hole in the narrative of what happened that night that is filled only by Zimmerman's story. What happened between Zimmerman's last words to the police dispatcher and Martin supposedly being seen on top of him punching him? We don't know, and we never will know. What we do know is that Zimmerman's explanation of what happened at that point is dubious at best. Integral to it is the idea that he had to get out of his car to figure out where he was. But it isn't that big a neighborhood, he patrolled it frequently, it wasn't yet dark out, and street signs are normally fully readable from inside a vehicle. In addition, the actual shooting wasn't even on the street, so it is kind of hard to understand how Zimmerman shot a man 40+ feet from where said man supposedly jumped him. So basically he is almost definitely lying about why he got out of his car, and as such everything else he says about how the physical confrontation actually started is likely a lie. This is all ignoring the obvious issues with a grown man relentlessly stalking a minor.

    Or, lets put this all another way:
    Did Zimmerman shoot and kill Martin? Yes.
    Would Martin have died that night without the immediate actions of Zimmerman over that 5-6 minute period? No.
    Were Zimmerman's actions in the first 5 minutes of the confrontation in any way appropriate to the situation and necessary to the safety of himself or his neighborhood? No.
    Would a prudent individual acted in the manner Zimmerman acted during those 5-6 minutes? No.

    Seriously, if you don't prosecute people who do what Zimmerman did, then murdering anyone you like is as simple as finding them somewhere alone, starting a fight with them, letting them do a little harm to you, then shooting them dead. You can't do that, just like you can't invite someone into your house then kill them and claim it was legal under Castle Doctrine. Castle Doctrine, SYG, and even Self-Defense are NOT intended for a situation like this, where an armed individual is relentlessly chasing someone for ABSOLUTELY NO REASON AT ALL. Zimmerman's situation is not that different from a burglar who is shot by an armed homeowner, but who then wrestles the gun from the homeowner and kills them. Just because the criminal was defending himself in the moment doesn't mean it isn't murder, because he put himself in that situation with criminal intent.
    Last edited by arentol; 03-11-2013 at 02:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arentol View Post
    I--snipped--
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arentol View Post
    <snip>
    Thanks for the Al Sharpton view.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Has Zimmerman Waived His Right to a Pre-Trial "Stand-Your-Ground" Hearing?

    Quote Originally Posted by arentol View Post
    ...
    What Zimmerman did amounts to stupidity in the first degree, but is not criminal. In the final, fatal interaction, Zimmerman was indeed walking away. Martin was the pursuer, aggressor, and attempted murderer. Over time, as more and more information comes out, Zimmerman's version of events is being borne out. He is a stupid, but innocent, man.


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    Quote Originally Posted by arentol View Post
    It's funny, because I don't see how he couldn't be charged with manslaughter at the very least. Since they day I took up carrying a gun the one thing I was certain of was that if I initiated a physical confrontation with someone (not meaning if I swung first, but rather if I chose to escalate instead of walk away) while armed I was likely to be in very very big trouble. Anyone carrying a firearm who doesn't think so is an idiot and should leave their guns at home, if you are armed you are effectively required to take a LOT of **** and walk away. If you don't have the balls to do so then you should not be armed. Zimmerman has admitted to stalking and assaulting Martin (read the Florida statues closely, his statements to the dispatcher and statements to the police indicate he did both) in the minutes leading up to Martin's death. His statements also indicate he was doing all this for no justifiable reason at all, having witnessed no criminal, or even suspicious, activity. A police officer seeing the same thing wouldn't have RAS, let alone PC.

    One of the biggest issues with the Martin murder is that there is a massive hole in the narrative of what happened that night that is filled only by Zimmerman's story. What happened between Zimmerman's last words to the police dispatcher and Martin supposedly being seen on top of him punching him? We don't know, and we never will know. What we do know is that Zimmerman's explanation of what happened at that point is dubious at best. Integral to it is the idea that he had to get out of his car to figure out where he was. But it isn't that big a neighborhood, he patrolled it frequently, it wasn't yet dark out, and street signs are normally fully readable from inside a vehicle. In addition, the actual shooting wasn't even on the street, so it is kind of hard to understand how Zimmerman shot a man 40+ feet from where said man supposedly jumped him. So basically he is almost definitely lying about why he got out of his car, and as such everything else he says about how the physical confrontation actually started is likely a lie. This is all ignoring the obvious issues with a grown man relentlessly stalking a minor.

    Or, lets put this all another way:
    Did Zimmerman shoot and kill Martin? Yes.
    Would Martin have died that night without the immediate actions of Zimmerman over that 5-6 minute period? No.
    Were Zimmerman's actions in the first 5 minutes of the confrontation in any way appropriate to the situation and necessary to the safety of himself or his neighborhood? No.
    Would a prudent individual acted in the manner Zimmerman acted during those 5-6 minutes? No.

    Seriously, if you don't prosecute people who do what Zimmerman did, then murdering anyone you like is as simple as finding them somewhere alone, starting a fight with them, letting them do a little harm to you, then shooting them dead. You can't do that, just like you can't invite someone into your house then kill them and claim it was legal under Castle Doctrine. Castle Doctrine, SYG, and even Self-Defense are NOT intended for a situation like this, where an armed individual is relentlessly chasing someone for ABSOLUTELY NO REASON AT ALL. Zimmerman's situation is not that different from a burglar who is shot by an armed homeowner, but who then wrestles the gun from the homeowner and kills them. Just because the criminal was defending himself in the moment doesn't mean it isn't murder, because he put himself in that situation with criminal intent.
    Anyone remember those infommercials for learning how to speed read? You only had to skim a story, read every other line etc. Well that would be how a person would come up with a view point like this.

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    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Law of Self Defense View Post
    SNIPPEDPersonally, I believe Zimmerman is being politically railroaded, by both the prosecution and the mainstream media.
    Andrew
    100% agreed. I also believe the REASON is that the politicians are afraid of the possibility of the riots that some believe (I am among them) will come if Zimmerman is acquitted. The race baiters were already whipping things up early on until they got someone to come in and file charges. All that did is put the race baiters at bay for a while. They'll be back. Can you imagine the rev's S and J passing on such an "opportunity" to get their mugs on TV? Well maybe S doesn't need that now that he has is own "show".
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    Anyone else remember the protests and shooting of a police car before Zimmerman was charged? Riots in the event of his acquittal seem pretty likely to me. Especially if the media is kicking up the dust again to make him look guilty. It demonstrates their willingness to continue to the controversy. The more they prod, the more tensions will rise. The higher tensions rise, the more likely there will be a pop. Seems to me almost as though some in the media actually want that. It appears Zimmerman is not guilty, and seems pretty obvious. The media went to great lengths in the beginning to make him look guilty as sin and Martin a perfect little angel that fell victim to this horrible racist monster white devil. What sells more papers that a stupid little nontroversy? Riots. >.>

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    Definitely a media-driven event. Yes, Zimmerman was stupid, but, yes, Martin was the aggressor.

    Remember how almost all of the pictures posted of Martin showed a sweet little choir-boy looking ten-year-old? When they should have been showing pictures of a much older and much more thuggish-looking person.

    Sad that a young man lost his life, but I don't believe Zimmerman had a choice after he was attacked.

    If, and that is a very big "If", Zimmerman is acquitted, it's possible the riots won't be confined to Florida.

    Funny thing is, we've had sixteen homicides this year in Montgomery, AL and they have, as far as I can determine, all been black-on-black violence. If the two good "Reverends" want to address a major problem in the black community, they should be taking a long, hard look at this sort of thing.
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