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Thread: Simultaneous open and concealed carry

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    Simultaneous open and concealed carry

    Sometimes when I open carry I still carry a pocket pistol concealed. How does this make me legally? Am I open or concealed carrying in the eyes of the law? For instance am I allowed to drink? I use this just as an example as I donít even drink. Also if I am open carrying only (i.e. no pocket pistol), but have an extra magazine in my pocket does that affect my carry status? Do I need to also expose all magazines to not fall under some concealed carry laws? Do many of you open and concealed carry at the same time?
    Last edited by Mongoose72; 03-09-2013 at 12:44 AM.

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    if you're carrying a pocket pistol concealed then you are carrying concealed and the law says you must have a CHP. If asked by LEO to show your 'permit' just because he sees your openly carried firearm then you have to show it BECAUSE you are also carrying concealed. Where you keep your spare magazines is irrelevent as far as affecting carry status

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    if you're carrying a pocket pistol concealed then you are carrying concealed and the law says you must have a CHP. If asked by LEO to show your 'permit' just because he sees your openly carried firearm then you have to show it BECAUSE you are also carrying concealed. Where you keep your spare magazines is irrelevent as far as affecting carry status
    Thank you Scouser..I really....Really, didn't want to answer that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongoose72 View Post
    Am I open or concealed carrying in the eyes of the law?
    Both of course .. and I would recommend anyone openly carry to also CC .. and to follow the laws in respect to both

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongoose72 View Post
    Sometimes when I open carry I still carry a pocket pistol concealed. How does this make me legally? Am I open or concealed carrying in the eyes of the law? For instance am I allowed to drink? I use this just as an example as I donít even drink. Also if I am open carrying only (i.e. no pocket pistol), but have an extra magazine in my pocket does that affect my carry status? Do I need to also expose all magazines to not fall under some concealed carry laws? Do many of you open and concealed carry at the same time?
    Each condition of carry (OC or CC) is judged separately for purposes of determining legality. If you are CCing, the you cannot legally consume alchohol unless you are one of the excluded/priviledged exceptions.
    http://leg1.state.va.us/000/cod/18.2-308.HTM

    A concealed magazine does not in itself create a problem; however, a loaded handgun (OC or CC) equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition in listed municipalities is going to prove to be a transgression, UNLESS you have a CHP. There are additional don't-does listed within the following statute:
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...cod+18.2-287.4

    Do some OC and CC simultaniously? You betcha, and for numerous reasons.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.Ē Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Do some OC and CC simultaneously? You betcha, and for numerous reasons.
    So, that would make one Bi-Concealed? Super-Duper.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    So, that would make one Bi-Concealed? Super-Duper.
    Openly concealing.

    Semi-concealing.

    Or, it's plain to see.......ready yet?..............Virginia Concealed. Some might call it Constitutional Carry.

    Was disarmed for officer "safety" once when OCing. He did not ask me if I had a BUG........I did.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.Ē Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Openly concealing.

    Semi-concealing.

    Or, it's plain to see.......ready yet?..............Virginia Concealed. Some might call it Constitutional Carry.

    Was disarmed for officer "safety" once when OCing. He did not ask me if I had a BUG........I did.
    Good for you!

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    Clarification

    To clarify I do of course have a CHP. So as to my hypothetical question, the answer would be no you cannot drink while open and concealed carrying because you are still carrying concealed. What prompted me to ask the question originally was that I was looking at a rather complicated listing of gun rights in state/ national parks, and wet land areas which someone on the forum compiled a couple years ago. As I recall there were numerous times where concealed carry only was allowed and a few times where open carry only was allowed. One would logically assume that if I am open carrying I am not hiding that I am armed from anyone and I should have no problem concealed carrying as well; of course I know enough about law to know that in modern America it is viewed as positivistic and not natural and thus logic and common sense often do not come into the equation or the enforcement. I was just looking for whether there were any statutes or cases where open carrying overrides the fact that you are concealed carrying as well. I guess that there aren’t.

    As to my own personal reasons for simultaneous carry, having spent most of my life in states with no gun rights often doing late night delivery jobs or living in areas for a few years where I was the minority I have had to on more than one occasion appear to be armed (i.e. hand in pocket) in order to avoid a potential robbery. I know that criminals also pocket carry; not open carry! Thus the 2 thugs that cross your path late at night may already have their hands on a pistol in their pocket and be completely oblivious to yours in your holster. You can’t draw your gun from your holster as you risk a brandishing charge if they don’t intended to rob you and are just thugging around (Forum rules really make effective communication difficult!!!). I suppose that you could rest your hand on your open carry gun (while still in holster) like the police do all the time and it wouldn’t be considered brandishing (if the situation looked really bad)?? Does anyone here use such a tactic? Is it legal? Anyhow with the pocket pistol you can safely have your hand on a gun in a potentially dangerous situation and avoid the whole brandishing gray area. My 2 cents.
    Last edited by Mongoose72; 03-09-2013 at 03:28 PM.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    So, that would make one Bi-Concealed? Super-Duper.
    Careful!

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Careful!
    "Not that there's anything wrong with that."

    Of course, if you choose to OC, you're already Outed.

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    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
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    One would logically assume that if I am open carrying I am not hiding that I am armed from anyone and I should have no problem concealed carrying as well;
    and you'd be wrong, because the concealed firearm is considered independently of your open carried sidearm. I understand your logic, but we're dealing with the law here... logic rarely applies.
    Last edited by zoom6zoom; 03-09-2013 at 04:01 PM.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    "Not that there's anything wrong with that."

    Of course, if you choose to OC, you're already Outed.
    You could have picked a better episode

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=scouser;1909706If asked by LEO to show your 'permit' just because he sees your openly carried firearm then you have to show it BECAUSE you are also carrying concealed. [/QUOTE]

    ...not to mention.. the law requires to you to show it upon demand..

    18.2-308
    Failure to display the permit and a photo identification upon demand by a law-enforcement officer shall be punishable by a $25 civil penalty, which shall be paid into the state treasury. Any attorney for the Commonwealth of the county or city in which the alleged violation occurred may bring an action to recover the civil penalty. A court may waive such penalty upon presentation to the court of a valid permit and a government-issued photo identification. Any law-enforcement officer may issue a summons for the civil violation of failure to display the concealed handgun permit and photo identification upon demand.
    Carry On.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    ...not to mention.. the law requires to you to show it upon demand..

    18.2-308
    Failure to display the permit and a photo identification upon demand by a law-enforcement officer shall be punishable by a $25 civil penalty, which shall be paid into the state treasury. Any attorney for the Commonwealth of the county or city in which the alleged violation occurred may bring an action to recover the civil penalty. A court may waive such penalty upon presentation to the court of a valid permit and a government-issued photo identification. Any law-enforcement officer may issue a summons for the civil violation of failure to display the concealed handgun permit and photo identification upon demand.
    To clarify:
    The demand to show your permit and photo ID is only valid if you are actually CCing (not just OCing) at the time.

    The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the United States Department of Defense or United States State Department (passport) upon demand by a law-enforcement officer.
    Sec.H, http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.Ē Archilochus, 650 BC

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    18.2-308(H) clearly states that one is required to display the card upon demand only while actually carrying a concealed weapon. I think that clause controls over the provisions regarding military service personnel and nonresidents which discuss procedures applicable to certain classes of persons, unlike the statement in (H) which governs use of the permit generally. Those provisions do not address the issue of when the permit must be displayed directly, so the provisions of (H) will be read in to apply to such cases.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    18.2-308(H) clearly states that one is required to display the card upon demand only while actually carrying a concealed weapon. I think that clause controls over the provisions regarding military service personnel and nonresidents which discuss procedures applicable to certain classes of persons, unlike the statement in (H) which governs use of the permit generally. Those provisions do not address the issue of when the permit must be displayed directly, so the provisions of (H) will be read in to apply to such cases.
    Hey! Cool!

    I just checked the statute and it does indeed say "upon demand". Formerly, it said "upon request". Now it says "upon demand" both mid-paragraph and at the end when it talks about being issued a citation.

    No more fannying about as to whether the cop "requested" the CHP or "demanded" it.

    Somehow I missed that change.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Hey! Cool!

    I just checked the statute and it does indeed say "upon demand". Formerly, it said "upon request". Now it says "upon demand" both mid-paragraph and at the end when it talks about being issued a citation.

    No more fannying about as to whether the cop "requested" the CHP or "demanded" it.

    Somehow I missed that change.
    I'm confused about how this is better. (Although, I don't remember it ever being the "other" way... assuming it was at one point...)

    If it says "request" then no matter what the conditions are, you would be required to display it. Now that it says "demand", you DO have to "fanny about" as to whether it's a request or a demand, if you want to only display it when legally required. Did I mis-read what you were trying to say?

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Hey! Cool!

    I just checked the statute and it does indeed say "upon demand". Formerly, it said "upon request". Now it says "upon demand" both mid-paragraph and at the end when it talks about being issued a citation.

    No more fannying about as to whether the cop "requested" the CHP or "demanded" it.

    Somehow I missed that change.
    Don't get caught up in sematics of ordinary language.

    "Demand" is a term of art with multiple meanings depending on the setting or forum. A LEO who merely asks is making a "demand" under color of law. It is a request made with authority.

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    You could have picked a better episode
    I can see not caring what happens to us, we're human. But what about the handgun fish? The fish? - Elaine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Hey! Cool!

    I just checked the statute and it does indeed say "upon demand". Formerly, it said "upon request". Now it says "upon demand" both mid-paragraph and at the end when it talks about being issued a citation.

    No more fannying about as to whether the cop "requested" the CHP or "demanded" it.

    Somehow I missed that change.

    So what I've pondered since the change....if I pin it with my other notes from mom to my jackie, have I met the legal requirement to "display" it?

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    So what I've pondered since the change....if I pin it with my other notes from mom to my jackie, have I met the legal requirement to "display" it?
    If you start wearing a collar you can attach it to that. That's how Zeus displays his license

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    If you start wearing a collar you can attach it to that. That's how Zeus displays his license
    Good idea! I could hang it next to my rabies tag! Good boy, sit! Show your permit, good boy!

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Simultaneous open and concealed carry

    I have OCed my primary gun every day and had a BUG concealed on many occasions. It's been five years and I've never been stopped by a cop. If you are interested in carry both ways and you have a permit, I encourage you to do so.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Regular Member altajava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    If you start wearing a collar you can attach it to that. That's how Zeus displays his license

    Using that didn't really go as well as I had hoped but has made a couple of liberals walk away in disgust.
    "you got a license for that?" of course I said " yep, it's on his collar".

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