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Thread: No Gun sign vs spouse

  1. #1
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    No Gun sign vs spouse

    How many of you have a spouse or sugnificant other who isn't into the gun cloture as much as you and when it comes to the "No Gun signs" and not patronizing such places it causes issues.

    Here is why I ask. My wife is pro gun and me carrying but when it comes to the gun free zones she could care less about them and continue to support them. When we go someplace new and see a sign I say lets go someplace else and she is like well put it in the car or You should have left it at home. We have gotten into some squabbles over it that never end well.

    How do you handle the situation as it arrises?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullbuster View Post
    How do you handle the situation as it arrises?
    I married a woman who agrees with me on most things, and respects my opinion and honors my wishes where we disagree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    I married a woman who agrees with me on most things, and respects my opinion and honors my wishes where we disagree.
    I married a TX girl. Stubborn and pigheaded are the easy aspects to contend with.
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    Its a trip

    I've been told that the even the longest journey begins with just a single step. Sounds like she's with you 90%, give the rest some time. Explain to her that the gun does you and her no good in the car, or at home. It defeats the entire purpose of having a permit. Be patient and continue to explain the purpose and your intent, and the reasons behind both. Stick to your guns and she'll come around to your thinking , and respect you more for it.
    My wife went from putting up with guns, to wanting to shoot them herself, to getting her own permit. It took 8 years to get there. My wife is an Okie, it doesn't any more stubborn than that, my friend.
    Last edited by babiker911; 03-12-2013 at 07:46 PM.

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    The first time I had this issue, I lost. That was at Buffalo Wild Wings. I had mentioned to my wife previous the reasoning behind my actions but obviously didn't fully explain that this meant going elsewhere even when we were already at the door. She was "starving" and it was obvious I was not going to win. She protested when I threatened to just wait in the car, then I come up with a compromise. I agreed to eat with her and "be happy" with one stipulation. No matter the future circumstances she would always "willfully" withhold business from any establishment that banned lawfully carried firearms.

    It was a victory but I still had to give BWW my business, so I expressed my displeasure of their policy via their website, email, and facebook (which didn’t go over well with their fans). I am lucky to have a wife that will usually support me on things like this, but it still requires a compromise.

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    Regular Member ethorman's Avatar
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    My wife being born in TX and raised in OK has some of the same qualities. She is pro gun and has went out and gotten her permit as well. She was a little concerned about OCing when it first came out, for herself. She supported my right to OC and eventually she found that its just so much more comfortable for her. She has gone from concealing, to only OCing with me, and more recently she OCed with some girlfriends of hers on a girls day out. When it comes to places that are posted she usually will let me know if someone put a sign up. If you must frequent places that are posted then the choice is yours. I will say that if you conceal carry in places that are posted and someone finds out then they can ask you to leave, and if you don't then its trespassing... but you still have a means to protect yourself and your family.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ethorman View Post
    My wife being born in TX and raised in OK has some of the same qualities. She is pro gun and has went out and gotten her permit as well. She was a little concerned about OCing when it first came out, for herself. She supported my right to OC and eventually she found that its just so much more comfortable for her. She has gone from concealing, to only OCing with me, and more recently she OCed with some girlfriends of hers on a girls day out. When it comes to places that are posted she usually will let me know if someone put a sign up. If you must frequent places that are posted then the choice is yours. I will say that if you conceal carry in places that are posted and someone finds out then they can ask you to leave, and if you don't then its trespassing... but you still have a means to protect yourself and your family.
    Actually, the law is such that if you carry where its posted No Guns, you are already trespassing and they are clear to call the police and you can be cited for it. There is no requirement that they have to ask you to leave, the sign has already given you notice for them. So if you carry under those circumstances, you're taking a chance on being cited for trespassing.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Gary S's Avatar
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    It takes time but they do come around. I was going to ask how you know my wife but quickly realized she couldn't be the only one like that.
    I won't argue with my wife because women can back up just as easy as note forward. I take her thoughts into account and remind her that its my right to carry as well as there right to put up those signs. So ill wait out here armed you go in and I won't come back here after today. We respect each others rights that way.
    Good luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by babiker911 View Post
    I've been told that the even the longest journey begins with just a single step. Sounds like she's with you 90%, give the rest some time. Explain to her that the gun does you and her no good in the car, or at home. It defeats the entire purpose of having a permit. Be patient and continue to explain the purpose and your intent, and the reasons behind both. Stick to your guns and she'll come around to your thinking , and respect you more for it.
    My wife went from putting up with guns, to wanting to shoot them herself, to getting her own permit. It took 8 years to get there. My wife is an Okie, it doesn't (get) any more stubborn than that, my friend.
    Damn straight!

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    Marriage is an institution ... so you have been living in an institution .. you shouldn't even have a gun !!!!


  11. #11
    Regular Member okiephlyer's Avatar
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    Know before you go. Be pro-active and know whether your destination is posted or not. My wife is just sort of OK with me carrying everywhere, but she really thinks it is silly. I know how she feels and she knows that I won't give it up. We still have words occasionally. Friendorfoe.us is a good site, still new and needing a lot more input, but worth checking out. Also, on this and other forums there is a pretty good list of places that are or are not posted. Generally, there will be a non-posted business for about anything you want to do.

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    My wife and I will be married 40 years on the 24th of this month. She has backed me on open/concealed carry for the past 15 years. We are old west re-enactors and she will use blanks in her gun. She however will not use live rounds for self defense. She says thats my job. Our disagreements end with her statement that she bends to my right to be wrong. How the hell she has put up with me for 40 years is mind boggleing. I guess its because she is an okie born and bred and just as stubborn.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gprod55 View Post
    My wife and I will be married 40 years on the 24th of this month. She has backed me on open/concealed carry for the past 15 years. We are old west re-enactors and she will use blanks in her gun. She however will not use live rounds for self defense. She says thats my job. Our disagreements end with her statement that she bends to my right to be wrong. How the hell she has put up with me for 40 years is mind boggleing. I guess its because she is an okie born and bred and just as stubborn.
    At most gun fight distances blanks are dangerous, Branden Lee was killed by a blank. I used to use wax bullets for fast draw, but would never use them for self defense.

    Though this site is about holstered handgun open carry, there are other options that are less lethal than can be open carried. Such as pepper spray, or tazer if it is legal in your state.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    At most gun fight distances blanks are dangerous, Branden Lee was killed by a blank. I used to use wax bullets for fast draw, but would never use them for self defense.

    Though this site is about holstered handgun open carry, there are other options that are less lethal than can be open carried. Such as pepper spray, or tazer if it is legal in your state.
    Our distance for gunfights is 10 feet minimum. Usually like 20 feet or more. Wasp spray is much better then pepper spray as it can be used at much greater distances and when it comes in contact with the head it requires medical intervention. It can also be used on 4 legged critters as well as 2. When you play with real guns safety is of the utmost concern.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gprod55 View Post
    Our distance for gunfights is 10 feet minimum. Usually like 20 feet or more. Wasp spray is much better then pepper spray as it can be used at much greater distances and when it comes in contact with the head it requires medical intervention. It can also be used on 4 legged critters as well as 2. When you play with real guns safety is of the utmost concern.
    The problem with wasp spray would be blow back at close range, and it would also depend on state law, and use might fall under federal laws regarding use of chemicals. I don't carry pepper spray when armed, I don't want to be second guessed if I ever have to use deadly force that I could have used pepper spray. We do have canisters of law enforcement pepper spray for those circumstances when we cannot be armed. Bear spray is a little stronger than the LE grade.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babiker911 View Post
    Actually, the law is such that if you carry where its posted No Guns, you are already trespassing and they are clear to call the police and you can be cited for it. There is no requirement that they have to ask you to leave, the sign has already given you notice for them. So if you carry under those circumstances, you're taking a chance on being cited for trespassing.
    Can you please post the part of the law that states that the sign counts as having already given notice. I can't seem to find it and am under the impression that you can only be cited should you be asked to leave and refuse.

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    Regular Member BigDeeeeeeee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullbuster View Post
    I married a TX girl.
    From another TX girl, why you shouldn't leave it in the car. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVdgoPLVnhk
    Last edited by BigDeeeeeeee; 03-13-2013 at 12:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    Can you please post the part of the law that states that the sign counts as having already given notice. I can't seem to find it and am under the impression that you can only be cited should you be asked to leave and refuse.
    There is no state law that specifies this and there is always discussion about what it means. Okiebryan and I disagree on this topic all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Midwest City Code
    Sec. 28-54. - Trespass.
    (a) No person shall trespass on public property or school property. As used in this subsection:
    (1) Public property shall mean that property which is dedicated to the public use and over which the federal, state or municipal governments or any political subdivision thereof exercises control and dominion.
    (2) Trespass shall mean each and every actual entry upon the premises of an owner or other person in lawful possession or control of the premises or government in violation and contrary to the provisions of any official sign posted to regulate and govern such entry or use or contrary to a lawful command to leave the premises by a government official having authority to issue such lawful command.
    (3) Official sign shall mean any permanently affixed notice posted by the federal, state or municipal government owning or maintaining any public property.
    (4) School property shall mean any property or institution devoted primarily to the education of children from pre-school thorough the twelfth grade.
    (b) No person shall trespass on private property. As used in this subsection, "private property" shall mean any property other than public property.
    (c)Trespass, as further defined in subsections (a) and (b) above, shall also mean:
    (1) Each and every entry upon the private property of the owner or other person in lawful possession or control of the premises without the express consent of the owner or other person in lawful possession;
    (2) Remaining on private property of an owner or other person in lawful possession or control of the premises after being told to leave the premises by the owner, agent, employee of the owner or other person having lawful possession or control of the premises;
    (3) Remaining on private property at any time outside the posted hours of business operation after having been directed to vacate such premises by a police officer, except for those persons, including employees, whose presence upon such premises is authorized by the owner or by a person in lawful possession of such premises, provided the hours of operation are clearly posted upon such premises;
    (4) Returning to private property before the posted time of opening for business operation on the next business day after having been directed to vacate such premises under the terms of this subsection;
    (5) Remaining on premises, whether public or private, when such is posted forbidding said act at any time other than during the posted hours of business operation;
    (6) Remaining on public property after having been given a lawful order or command to leave the premises by a governmental official having the authority to give such order or command in response to a public disturbance, act of vandalism, disorderly conduct, or other conduct which is disruptive to the public peace; or
    (7) Returning to public property after having been directed to vacate such premises under subsection (6).
    (d)Any person violating any provision of this section shall be punished by a fine or imprisonment in accordance with section 1-15 of this Code, plus costs, or by both such fine and imprisonment.

    Linky
    So we need to look at Section (b)(1). It is my opinion that if a business is posted, then the owner has made it clear they do not want firearms in their establishment. If you take a firearm into the establishment, you no longer have express permission to be there as you have violated a condition set fourth by the owner as allowing you to be there. Without this express permission, you have committed trespass.

    Section (b)(2) indicates that trespass is also defines as not leaving when asked and most businesses will ask you first because they still want your money and don't want to cause a big scene.

    The big argument that I have heard about trespass is that it is about if you are allowed to be someplace, not what you have with you. I personally still believe that carrying past the sign violates the express permission clause and therefore causes you to trespass.
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be accepted as legal advice

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    I can't find a good definition for "express consent" and without that it is hard for me to agree with it violating the "express consent" clause. To me "express consent" means that you have been specifically told that you may enter the property (such as actual private property where you would go hunting), but businesses open to the public operate under "implied consent" where is implied that all have consent to enter. Also the sign itself doesn't seem to have the weight of law as it appears the only signs with the weight of law are covered under A-3 which is only for government posted signs.

    Not saying that my way of interpreting the law is correct, simply that that is how I read it given the verbage and a lack of proper definition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    I can't find a good definition for "express consent" and without that it is hard for me to agree with it violating the "express consent" clause. To me "express consent" means that you have been specifically told that you may enter the property (such as actual private property where you would go hunting), but businesses open to the public operate under "implied consent" where is implied that all have consent to enter. Also the sign itself doesn't seem to have the weight of law as it appears the only signs with the weight of law are covered under A-3 which is only for government posted signs.

    Not saying that my way of interpreting the law is correct, simply that that is how I read it given the verbage and a lack of proper definition.
    A-3 only applies to public and school property, not private property.

    Since you brought up the express vs implied consent issue, I have seen some city codes that do say "express or implied consent". Don't have time at the moment to go find them again, but what is your opinion when the trespass law says "express and implied consent"?
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be accepted as legal advice

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    Regular Member robert1970's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    I married a woman who agrees with me on most things, and respects my opinion and honors my wishes where we disagree.
    Iam lucky also, my wife totally supports open carry, and she wants to start carrying also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    I can't find a good definition for "express consent" and without that it is hard for me to agree with it violating the "express consent" clause. To me "express consent" means that you have been specifically told that you may enter the property (such as actual private property where you would go hunting), but businesses open to the public operate under "implied consent" where is implied that all have consent to enter. Also the sign itself doesn't seem to have the weight of law as it appears the only signs with the weight of law are covered under A-3 which is only for government posted signs.

    Not saying that my way of interpreting the law is correct, simply that that is how I read it given the verbage and a lack of proper definition.
    what you have to understand is a sign acts much like verbal information. No parking signs can get you towed if they are marked as tow away zones, no one under 21 means you were warned at the door you cant be inside and thus can constitute unlawfully being in a bar and as such be trespass warned (Possibly arrested if consuming alcahol under age)

    And firearm signs are as well in the same category as they are stating no firearms permitted as a condition of entry. Most cases though businesses will work with you because they want money and there is a general understanding that sometimes people do get boneheaded and just dont pay attention. It saddens me that I have a duty to perform and just the other day had to escort a person out (Could have done trespass and cost 150 bucks) but I politely informed him I do support the firearm community and that unfortunately my employer does not. It was one of my more painful moments.

    All in all though some places do some pretty boneheaded things with these signs such as 7/11s who for some reason want to put the sign on the bottom of the door to presumably not attract the attention of armed robbers. The flip side is its not noticeable to the every day joe and could land an uncomfortable position to be in. I dont see however if it were to go to court the court siding with 7-11 as the signs are intentionally placed outside of site.

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    Regular Member okiebryan's Avatar
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    While I understand hrdware's legal theory, and agree with him on a purely theoretical sense. I've actually had people arrested for trespassing at my business. In practical use, police ask multiple times whether I told the subject in no uncertain terms that their presence was not wanted, and that I wanted them to leave. Unless I answer that I told them to leave multiple times, they don't arrest them. Once they arrest them, they then tell me that I have to say to their face, "you are not welcome on this property, and may not return".

    I'm pretty sure it has something to do with the strength of their case. I've never gone to court on one, because they always have either plead out, or failed to appear and were found guilty "in absentia"...

    For for legal theory, I think he's right... but in the hood where I live, it's not done this way. I don't see any OKC cop arresting for trespassing solely on the basis of a sign with no legal authority as notification.

    Having said that, I think that concealing and spending money at a business that posts these silly no gun signs is rewarding stupid. I go to great pains to reward behavior I want to continue, and not to reward boneheaded decisions. Especially when I actually have a choice.

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    Regular Member DamonK's Avatar
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    Re: No Gun sign vs spouse

    In Washington State it's already been ruled on. The signs do not carry weight of law. So I conceal when I have to, and OC every other time.

    Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrdware View Post
    A-3 only applies to public and school property, not private property.

    Since you brought up the express vs implied consent issue, I have seen some city codes that do say "express or implied consent". Don't have time at the moment to go find them again, but what is your opinion when the trespass law says "express and implied consent"?
    My opinion here would be that an individual has implied consent to be there, but they aren't supposed to be there with the weapon. So then the issue becomes, did they see the sign and ignore it, or did they simply not see the sign? Since the person already has implied consent to be there by default, I would say that if they didn't see the sign then it isn't trespass until notified. But if they saw the sign and ignored it, then it would be trespass. Of course the next issue turns into proving that they saw the sign (especially in the places that put it in places like the bottom corner or where sliding doors cover it), and short of them admitting to seeing it and ignoring it, you're going to have a hard time proving that they were trespassing without a law giving signs the full weight of notification regardless of if they are "seen" or not.

    Now I'm not advocating that one do business with such places, but am curious about the subject simply from the legal standpoint of signs and trespass.

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