No Gun sign vs spouse

KBCraig said:

I married a woman who agrees with me on most things, and respects my opinion and honors my wishes where we disagree. :banana:

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Iam lucky also, my wife totally supports open carry, and she wants to start carrying also.

Aknazer said:

I can't find a good definition for "express consent" and without that it is hard for me to agree with it violating the "express consent" clause. To me "express consent" means that you have been specifically told that you may enter the property (such as actual private property where you would go hunting), but businesses open to the public operate under "implied consent" where is implied that all have consent to enter. Also the sign itself doesn't seem to have the weight of law as it appears the only signs with the weight of law are covered under A-3 which is only for government posted signs.

Not saying that my way of interpreting the law is correct, simply that that is how I read it given the verbage and a lack of proper definition.

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what you have to understand is a sign acts much like verbal information. No parking signs can get you towed if they are marked as tow away zones, no one under 21 means you were warned at the door you cant be inside and thus can constitute unlawfully being in a bar and as such be trespass warned (Possibly arrested if consuming alcahol under age)

And firearm signs are as well in the same category as they are stating no firearms permitted as a condition of entry. Most cases though businesses will work with you because they want money and there is a general understanding that sometimes people do get boneheaded and just dont pay attention. It saddens me that I have a duty to perform and just the other day had to escort a person out (Could have done trespass and cost 150 bucks) but I politely informed him I do support the firearm community and that unfortunately my employer does not. It was one of my more painful moments.

All in all though some places do some pretty boneheaded things with these signs such as 7/11s who for some reason want to put the sign on the bottom of the door to presumably not attract the attention of armed robbers. The flip side is its not noticeable to the every day joe and could land an uncomfortable position to be in. I dont see however if it were to go to court the court siding with 7-11 as the signs are intentionally placed outside of site.

While I understand hrdware's legal theory, and agree with him on a purely theoretical sense. I've actually had people arrested for trespassing at my business. In practical use, police ask multiple times whether I told the subject in no uncertain terms that their presence was not wanted, and that I wanted them to leave. Unless I answer that I told them to leave multiple times, they don't arrest them. Once they arrest them, they then tell me that I have to say to their face, "you are not welcome on this property, and may not return".

I'm pretty sure it has something to do with the strength of their case. I've never gone to court on one, because they always have either plead out, or failed to appear and were found guilty "in absentia"...

For for legal theory, I think he's right... but in the hood where I live, it's not done this way. I don't see any OKC cop arresting for trespassing solely on the basis of a sign with no legal authority as notification.

Having said that, I think that concealing and spending money at a business that posts these silly no gun signs is rewarding stupid. I go to great pains to reward behavior I want to continue, and not to reward boneheaded decisions. Especially when I actually have a choice.

In Washington State it's already been ruled on. The signs do not carry weight of law. So I conceal when I have to, and OC every other time.

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hrdware said:

A-3 only applies to public and school property, not private property.

Since you brought up the express vs implied consent issue, I have seen some city codes that do say "express or implied consent". Don't have time at the moment to go find them again, but what is your opinion when the trespass law says "express and implied consent"?

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My opinion here would be that an individual has implied consent to be there, but they aren't supposed to be there with the weapon. So then the issue becomes, did they see the sign and ignore it, or did they simply not see the sign? Since the person already has implied consent to be there by default, I would say that if they didn't see the sign then it isn't trespass until notified. But if they saw the sign and ignored it, then it would be trespass. Of course the next issue turns into proving that they saw the sign (especially in the places that put it in places like the bottom corner or where sliding doors cover it), and short of them admitting to seeing it and ignoring it, you're going to have a hard time proving that they were trespassing without a law giving signs the full weight of notification regardless of if they are "seen" or not.

Now I'm not advocating that one do business with such places, but am curious about the subject simply from the legal standpoint of signs and trespass.

Bullbuster said:

How many of you have a spouse or sugnificant other who isn't into the gun cloture as much as you and when it comes to the "No Gun signs" and not patronizing such places it causes issues.

Here is why I ask. My wife is pro gun and me carrying but when it comes to the gun free zones she could care less about them and continue to support them. When we go someplace new and see a sign I say lets go someplace else and she is like well put it in the car or You should have left it at home. We have gotten into some squabbles over it that never end well.

How do you handle the situation as it arrises?

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I "stand my ground".....and then I say "yes dear."

I am dedicated to maintaining my domestic tranquility.....happy wife, happy life.

Show me a married man who stands his ground with his wife, always, and I'll show you a liar or a formerly married man.

Aknazer said:

My opinion here would be that an individual has implied consent to be there, but they aren't supposed to be there with the weapon. So then the issue becomes, did they see the sign and ignore it, or did they simply not see the sign? Since the person already has implied consent to be there by default, I would say that if they didn't see the sign then it isn't trespass until notified. But if they saw the sign and ignored it, then it would be trespass. Of course the next issue turns into proving that they saw the sign (especially in the places that put it in places like the bottom corner or where sliding doors cover it), and short of them admitting to seeing it and ignoring it, you're going to have a hard time proving that they were trespassing without a law giving signs the full weight of notification regardless of if they are "seen" or not.

Now I'm not advocating that one do business with such places, but am curious about the subject simply from the legal standpoint of signs and trespass.

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To my knowledge no on in this state has ever been charged with trespass due to carrying past a sign. I also completely agree with you about placement. People have started saying that CVS has taken their signs down...not true, they made the signs smaller, use English wording only (not even pictures), place them amongst the other "rules for entry" signs, and then place a large advertisement sign in front of that window. I'm tempted to go in and walk around one day just because I can't see the sign.

Right after open carry became legal I walked into a Circle K while OC. No one said anything to me. When I came in, I entered the right door, and exited through the left. As I was leaving I saw a business card sized sign taped to the window on the far side of the door I exited. It is impossible to see this sign when entering through the right door as I did. Every Circle K I see is posted in this same manor...small sign in the window "hidden" by the door frame.

My point from a legal theoretical point of view, is that in strict interpretation, carrying past a no gun sign could (depending on local laws) be grounds for trespass. However, as Okiebryan said, in practice (and for cutting down paperwork and the judicial work load) most officers (or departments) will want the verbal notification. The city of Moore has a similar statute about trespass, however the police department put out a policy saying the person has to be asked to leave before they will cite them for trespass. If you call Moore PD and haven't said anything to the person, they will walk over with you and stand there while you ask them to leave, but they are requiring the verbal notification.

hrdware said:

...Right after open carry became legal I walked into a Circle K while OC. No one said anything to me. When I came in, I entered the right door, and exited through the left. As I was leaving I saw a business card sized sign taped to the window on the far side of the door I exited. It is impossible to see this sign when entering through the right door as I did. Every Circle K I see is posted in this same manor...small sign in the window "hidden" by the door frame...

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Heh Babies R Us is the same way. Business card size notice that is pretty much covered up by the metal bar when the sliding glass doors open up (the sign was on the non-moving door). I didn't see it until I was leaving.

Aknazer said:

Heh Babies R Us is the same way. Business card size notice that is pretty much covered up by the metal bar when the sliding glass doors open up (the sign was on the non-moving door). I didn't see it until I was leaving.

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Last time I was there, Toys R Us on SE 66th street in OKC was not posted, thought about going in and doing some browsing.

My wife used to be afraid of guns and did not like that I turned 21 while we were dating and started carrying everywhere even though I told her I was going to.

Then about seven months after I started carrying an individual attempted to mug me a gas station late one night. I pulled my jacket back and did not even have to reach for my gun because as soon as he saw it he threw his hands in the air and started backing up saying "we're cool, we're cool." He backed up about ten steps and then started running.

My wife instantly changed her attitude about my carrying. She started asking me if I had my gun every time we went out.

I am proud to say that my wife who would not even touch a gun now has her own pistol that I am not allowed to shoot. She doesn't carry yet but we are working on it.

hrdware said:

Last time I was there, Toys R Us on SE 66th street in OKC was not posted, thought about going in and doing some browsing.

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The toys r us here in tulsa is posted, there not shy about it either.

My wife and I have been married nearly 14 years. I learned ling ago to sleep test every couch before buying it. The other night was quiet time with the kids in bed and she wanted to talk so I opened the can of carry/ sign worms. I think she finally understands why I carry and it's not to look cool. She doesn't want to make a scene if someone sees it or take the time to go some other place. While I'm slowing breaking her down to reality she just woul rather not have the hassle that goes with it. I told her whenever we go out to eat and I'm driving her car then take it as I'm carrying.

Hah! My wifes Anti-gun, or at least used to be, she still doesn't like them, but recently she actually touched them...only to move them but still thats progress, im slowly wearing her down with facts! I pretty much told her, "look you married a soldier, from the south, who hunts and likes to go to tactile shoots, what did you expect? Thats not going to change, I'm going to buy a few fire arms that I want, I'm not going to go buy half a gun store. You're just going to have to deal with it."

That went over like a lead brick for the most part, but coupled with some good facts and my hard head, she's more or less submitted to the fact that, thats just going to be the way it is. And that I am teaching my son (5yr's old) about fire arm safety.

WalkingWolf said:

At most gun fight distances blanks are dangerous, Branden Lee was killed by a blank. I used to use wax bullets for fast draw, but would never use them for self defense.

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Technically Brandon Lee was killed by a projectile fragment left in the barrel from a previous special effects shot (none of this ended up in the final film, of course). There was no armorer on set at the time.

I have been blessed with a wife that not only understands my stance on gun buster signs and that I will not patronize those establishments but she also agrees and will also go somewhere else even when I'm not with her. She doesn't carry herself but I'm trying to get her up to that but want her to be comfortable and confident enough with her own ability to be able to handle it safely and proficiently as well.

davidmcbeth said:

Marriage is an institution ... so you have been living in an institution .. you shouldn't even have a gun !!!!

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"Marriage is an institution"--- So is the refomatory at granite.

gprod55 said:

Wasp spray is much better then pepper spray as it can be used at much greater distances and when it comes in contact with the head it requires medical intervention.

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This is Truth! My Sweet Baboo keeps a can of foaming wasp spray in the living room. She keeps it by her little laptop for quick access. Unlike spray, the foam is like having tracers and you can adjust fire quicker.


Herself is retired US Air Force, so she had a weapons background before I met her. Being medical, she was not enthusiastic over the idea of inflicting the harm that I was trained to induce. We decided that we both worked the same street, in the same direction, just on opposite sides. After retiring here to Washington, I decided that Open Carry would be appropriate again. She was not unhappy about it, but did not approve. Then, a law abiding Citizen, and a LEO, in separate incidents, harassed me for OC in her presence. She became rabid in her verbal assaults of them both. My Sweet Baboo does not consider herself a Legal Alien (Canadian), but a Citizen of the United States. Do not mess with the Ladies Constitution. Shortly after, she applied for her CPL and picked out a revolver to daily carry. She conceals most of the time, OCs occasionally, and cannot carry at all at work (County Jail). The percentage of OC/CC carry will, in time, get greater. Just show her the way.

OC for ME said:

I "stand my ground".....and then I say "yes dear."

I am dedicated to maintaining my domestic tranquility.....happy wife, happy life.

Show me a married man who stands his ground with his wife, always, and I'll show you a liar or a formerly married man.

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If it is unimportant to me, she gets her way. If it is unimportant to her, I get my way. The only rub is when it is important to both of us and we disagree.

On certain things I will not budge. Buffalo Wild Wings is one of those.

We recently made friends with a couple we met at a Bellamy Brothers concert. They both carry so now having a female friend who carries and can talk to my wife about it and go to the range with I think will help a bunch.
Cleaning out her car last night I found several 7/11 recipts and had to voice my opinions to her about it. To some degree she was receptive but for the most part she finds it an inconvience to go elsewhere she says. I either have eternity to break her down or a full on weapons ban to do it whichever comes first.

Just give her the No Guns = No Money card .... Then take your pillow to the couch

HEHE Had to throw in a little humor .. sorry, you may resume normal discussion.