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Thread: NRA won't oppose background checks??? CALLS NEEDED !

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    NRA won't oppose background checks??? CALLS NEEDED !

    http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2...rds-fight?lite

    "Senators negotiating a bill mandating background checks for all gun buyers are privately expecting the National Rifle Association not to fight the measure -- provided the legislation does not require private gun sellers to maintain records of the checks, NBC News has learned..."

    IF this is true, it's complete and utter B.S. I encourage every NRA member and gun owner to light up their switchboard.

    I will do so tomorrow.

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    As long as there is not registration involved I can't really get excited about background checks. I don't want to sell to a felon at any rate. Background checks for in family transfers would be the height of stupidity.

    What I do have concerns over is the taxing of a right - if its ok to put a tax on bearing arms, then its ok to demand an ID that might cost some money to get to avoid voter fraud.

    However, the thing that I see that most violates our rights of all proposals is the bans etc that try to restrict the arms most pertinent to the intent of the 2nd Amendment, from possession by the citizens that were meant to be armed as a deterrent to abuse by their own govenrment.

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    NRA won't oppose background checks??? CALLS NEEDED !

    Considering that I no longer belong to the NRA and never will again, meh.

    There is a reason that I do not belong. They demonstrate it quite nicely here.


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    NRA won't oppose background checks??? CALLS NEEDED !

    Quote Originally Posted by Saxxon View Post
    As long as there is not registration involved I can't really get excited about background checks. I don't want to sell to a felon at any rate. Background checks for in family transfers would be the height of stupidity.

    What I do have concerns over is the taxing of a right - if its ok to put a tax on bearing arms, then its ok to demand an ID that might cost some money to get to avoid voter fraud.

    However, the thing that I see that most violates our rights of all proposals is the bans etc that try to restrict the arms most pertinent to the intent of the 2nd Amendment, from possession by the citizens that were meant to be armed as a deterrent to abuse by their own govenrment.
    The danger of background checks is that now ALL transactions will have to go through an FFL. This will add even more to the cost of the most basic firearm, putting it out of the reach of many. THAT is an infringement on the right. Can you imagine buying a $100 used HiPoint and having to pay a fee to the FFL that amounts to a 50% tax?!

    The HiPoint was the only firearm my son could afford when he was in college. A $50 fee would have put that out of range.

    So, I'm glad you're OK with it. What about all the poorer folk who aren't? Did you think about their Right?


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    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/ne...heck-bill.aspx

    This is what happens when you don't go to the source.

    The*story*posted on NBCNews.com alleges that NRA will not oppose expanding the background check system to include all private firearm sales, "provided the legislation does not require private gun sellers to maintain records of the checks".* This statement is completely untrue.* The NRA opposes criminalizing private firearms transfers between law-abiding individuals, and therefore opposes an expansion of the background check system.**

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    (from the story) "If that requirement is met and key Republican negotiator Sen. Tom Coburn of Oklahoma signs on, the powerful gun lobby has signaled to lawmakers that they would not actively oppose the bill -- and not count votes in favor of it as part of its highly influential NRA lawmaker ratings..." (my bold)

    Think what you may, but I have enough direct and indirect experience with politicians and the NRA to know that the above can be, and quite possibly is true.

    It's all about parsing things, and not denying/speaking to certain things.
    Last edited by BB62; 03-13-2013 at 12:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxxon View Post
    As long as there is not registration involved I can't really get excited about background checks. I don't want to sell to a felon at any rate. Background checks for in family transfers would be the height of stupidity.

    What I do have concerns over is the taxing of a right - if its ok to put a tax on bearing arms, then its ok to demand an ID that might cost some money to get to avoid voter fraud.

    However, the thing that I see that most violates our rights of all proposals is the bans etc that try to restrict the arms most pertinent to the intent of the 2nd Amendment, from possession by the citizens that were meant to be armed as a deterrent to abuse by their own govenrment.
    HAHA. So now that ALL firearm transactions will have a paper trail -- which means they can all be traced back to a specific buyer -- it doesn't bother you? Have you gave the time to any actual thought about the consequences of such a bill?

    Currently FFLs have to keep ALL form 4473s for twenty years! We don't have registration, but they could very easily go into EVERY FFL in the country and determine where ALL of the new firearms that have been sold over the last twenty years have went to. What is nice is that most free states still allow the private transfer of firearms, so that new gun you bought at the FFL can be sold if no longer wanted without a paper trail.

    I prefer to buy my firearms through private transfers for this very reason. And, if this would become law, we could no longer say we sold our firearms IF they came looking for them, because then we would have committed a crime and we would still end up arrested.

    This bill could have severe consequences if enacted into law. The Federal government has NO business putting their nose into a private transaction between two people who live in the same state! This is just another attempted over-reach of Congress' authority! I do NOT and will NEVER support background checks for private transfers!

    There is more to this than stopping the sale of firearms to convicted felons! Anyone here with an ounce of logic knows we can NEVER stop a criminal from obtaining the tools of his trade! If they know where all of the firearms are, then they know exactly where to come looking for them. I'm one of those that believe we should learn from history so it isn't repeated; and we have ALL seen firsthand what this type of legislation leads to!
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Regular Member motoxmann's Avatar
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    yup, bogus reporting by NBC. NRA issued emails to all members, and blew up the interwebz and social media sites demolishing NBC's bogus report within only 1 or 2 hours of it first being publicized
    “Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry.” ~Thomas Jefferson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxxon View Post
    As long as there is not registration involved I can't really get excited about background checks. I don't want to sell to a felon at any rate. Background checks for in family transfers would be the height of stupidity.

    What I do have concerns over is the taxing of a right - if its ok to put a tax on bearing arms, then its ok to demand an ID that might cost some money to get to avoid voter fraud.

    However, the thing that I see that most violates our rights of all proposals is the bans etc that try to restrict the arms most pertinent to the intent of the 2nd Amendment, from possession by the citizens that were meant to be armed as a deterrent to abuse by their own govenrment.
    How do you sell your guns? Or how you will sell your guns? Its YOUR property, sell it anyway you like.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Another pearl of wisdom from Mr. Kelly.
    "Background checks do not and cannot lead to gun registration. It's a lie meant to muddy the debate and distract from our common goal -- saving lives with solutions that Americans support overwhelmingly," Mark Kelly, the husband of former Rep. Gabby Giffords, said in a Tuesday statement.
    Mr. Kelly is anti-liberty and anti-citizen along with being a hypocrite. Another gun totting liberal.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Another pearl of wisdom from Mr. Kelly.Mr. Kelly is anti-liberty and anti-citizen along with being a hypocrite. Another gun totting liberal.
    It is not so much that the checks will LEAD to registration. They won't, unless the law is changed or violated.

    What they do is put into place all the elements necessary to instantly bring to life a registration process.

    "OK, all you FFLs, start sending in copies of your 4473s." Every firearm that has been transferred only through the background check process can now be traced to its current owner without the warrant that would be required under today's law.

    Private sales, without 4473s, are the only thing now preventing the current pile of information out there from being quickly turned into a registration system.

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    Regular Member minarchist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    The danger of background checks is that now ALL transactions will have to go through an FFL. This will add even more to the cost of the most basic firearm, putting it out of the reach of many. THAT is an infringement on the right. Can you imagine buying a $100 used HiPoint and having to pay a fee to the FFL that amounts to a 50% tax?!

    The HiPoint was the only firearm my son could afford when he was in college. A $50 fee would have put that out of range.

    So, I'm glad you're OK with it. What about all the poorer folk who aren't? Did you think about their Right?


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    If I understand correctly, the "no-paper-trail" version of UBC that is being proposed would entail an honor system wherein the buyer merely shows his/her concealed carry license to the buyer (which creates issues for may issue/no issue state residents). Even though this does not appear to entail backdoor registration, I still oppose it on principle (an individual may be unable or unwilling to obtain a permission slip).

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    All that you state is true for a documented BC. What Mr. Kelly states is true if he were referring to undocumented BCs. He desires these checks to be documented and thus, currently, a Form 4473 must be completed to document the BC. If a new form were used, a form sans the firearm component, then the BC would/could not "register guns." The record of a BC would only exist in a government computer. Thus a BC is then worthless and would not perform the function that the anti-liberty crowd, and Mr. Kelly desires.

    BC = gun registration.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member minarchist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Private sales, without 4473s, are the only thing now preventing the current pile of information out there from being quickly turned into a registration system.
    What you mention is the main element preventing such a thing, but there is the often mentioned "tragic boating accident" as well, along with "theft". But yes, the anti-liberty scum do have a particularly big erection for eliminating the "gun show loophole" (****** morons-private sales can happen just about anywhere). However, even if anonymous private sales are banned, "loss" and "theft" still exist as avenues that some gun owners would surely take. Therefore, technically, an absolute airtight form of registration would still require full compliance, which will not happen.

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    This is EXACTLY why I'm NOT a member. The NRA like every lobby group will do as little/much possible to remain relevant. They make too much money to lobby themselves out of business.

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    NRA won't oppose background checks??? CALLS NEEDED !

    It is entirely unenforceable, which makes it a terrible law. It also imposes on transactions that do not involve interstate commerce.

    And the problem is that average Joe thinks it's either innocuous and beneficial. They don't understand the implications.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    In this digital age background check is a registration.

    It doesn't go away, maybe they don't know specifics but they know you were or were not "approved".
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxxon View Post
    As long as there is not registration involved I can't really get excited about background checks. I don't want to sell to a felon at any rate. Background checks for in family transfers would be the height of stupidity.

    What I do have concerns over is the taxing of a right - if its ok to put a tax on bearing arms, then its ok to demand an ID that might cost some money to get to avoid voter fraud.

    However, the thing that I see that most violates our rights of all proposals is the bans etc that try to restrict the arms most pertinent to the intent of the 2nd Amendment, from possession by the citizens that were meant to be armed as a deterrent to abuse by their own govenrment.

    Never heard of a concept called incrementalism have you?

    Sure there is no registration in THIS bill; but a couple years from now the Dem-o-craps come back and say "You know this background thing is not really working too well; what we really need is to keep records of who has what so we can make sure they are doing background checks". One small step at a time, inch by inch; same damned way our little 5 pound dog can push the wife out of bed at night.

    Never give 'em an inch, even if you can't see the harm now...... Rest assured the liberal Dem-o-craps have a long term plan even if you can't see it.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    In this digital age background check is a registration.

    It doesn't go away, maybe they don't know specifics but they know you were or were not "approved".
    I have not performed a "over the phone" BC, or any BC for that matter, so I do not know if firearm related data is provided. Firearm data should not be required to conduct the BC. If "press two for firearm BC" or some variation thereof is part of the BC process then a firearm purchase has been linked to that citizen. That in and of itself is unreasonable in my view and a form of "gun registration."
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I have not performed a "over the phone" BC, or any BC for that matter, so I do not know if firearm related data is provided. Firearm data should not be required to conduct the BC. If "press two for firearm BC" or some variation thereof is part of the BC process then a firearm purchase has been linked to that citizen. That in and of itself is unreasonable in my view and a form of "gun registration."
    Yea they will mention if it is a long gun etc.

    Even if they didn't give details about the weapon, the gov. still knows you are purchasing a weapon. And I am absolutely convinced this info does not go away. And have seen this evidence with my own eyes, here in Washington where we are not supposed to have a registration. I know that is mostly anecdotal and not proof for anyone else though.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    NRA won't oppose background checks??? CALLS NEEDED !

    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I have not performed a "over the phone" BC, or any BC for that matter, so I do not know if firearm related data is provided. Firearm data should not be required to conduct the BC. If "press two for firearm BC" or some variation thereof is part of the BC process then a firearm purchase has been linked to that citizen. That in and of itself is unreasonable in my view and a form of "gun registration."
    I don't know about States that have their own system, but we use the FBI NICS system. The only firearm information is whether the firearm(s) is/are handgun(s), long gun(s), or other firearm(s). That's it.

    However, the FFL keeps a paper record of the person and the firearm for twenty years, turning them over to the ATF if they go out of business.

    BCs do not equal registration, but they can turn into one (that covers the last 20 years) with the swipe of a legislative pen. The main stumbling block to making the current system a registration system? The lack of BCs on private sales. That must stay the same. And the best fix is eliminating ALL BCs! They are infringements in their own right, the ease of turning them into registration notwithstanding.


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    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    So we're not going to take the NRA's word, but we're going to believe the word of NBC? That's the way we do it now? Listen to a false report by a biased "news" outlet who is pushing gun control at every chance (MSNBC) and ignore that the NRA stated that the report was false? Cool. Nice to know we're an informed lot.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I don't know about States that have their own system, but we use the FBI NICS system. The only firearm information is whether the firearm(s) is/are handgun(s), long gun(s), or other firearm(s). That's it.

    However, the FFL keeps a paper record of the person and the firearm for twenty years, turning them over to the ATF if they go out of business.

    BCs do not equal registration, but they can turn into one (that covers the last 20 years) with the swipe of a legislative pen. The main stumbling block to making the current system a registration system? The lack of BCs on private sales. That must stay the same. And the best fix is eliminating ALL BCs! They are infringements in their own right, the ease of turning them into registration notwithstanding.


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    Thanks for the insight. This information leads me to my conclusion that a FBI NICS is a gun registration scheme. LE will not come and collect a specific gun(s) they know that I have a gun(s). They, LE, not knowing which models is irrelevant in my view and a distraction, I propose, from the fact that the government knows that I am armed.

    To avoid this situation in the future I must resort to private sales and the inherent risk with such a transaction.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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