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Thread: Good Cop, Bad Cop~Knowing which is which?

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Good Cop, Bad Cop~Knowing which is which?

    Most cops are good guys but we as the person interacting with them how do we protect ourselves from the small percentage of bad cops. Should we assume every cop is a good guy, and just let them in our home, search our car, put ourselves on the line, just because they seem like a good cop? This is not a bashing thread, but a common sense thread.

    Most people are good people, so do we really need to be prepared to defend ourselves, or trust the good cops to be there? Most drivers are good drivers, do we not need automobile insurance?

    As the OP all replies within the rules of the site are welcome.
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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Wait, until it's too late

    That is when you'll learn if the cop is a good cop or a bad cop.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Most cops are good guys but we as the person interacting with them how do we protect ourselves from the small percentage of bad cops. Should we assume every cop is a good guy, and just let them in our home, search our car, put ourselves on the line, just because they seem like a good cop? This is not a bashing thread, but a common sense thread.

    Most people are good people, so do we really need to be prepared to defend ourselves, or trust the good cops to be there? Most drivers are good drivers, do we not need automobile insurance?

    As the OP all replies within the rules of the site are welcome.
    I say we treat them all like the public servants they are. Don't let any in your house, nor car without a warrant. That's an easy way to tell the difference. A good cop will respect your rights, a bad cop will blow up and try to arrest you for using your rights. IMO everyone is a potential threat and many "bad guys" look exactly like "good guys" until they decide to do something bad. If I assume everyone is a good person, sooner or later I may end up face to face with one who actually wants to do me harm. If I assume everyone is a threat, I remain aware of my surroundings and in the case someone is actually a threat I am more likely to be able to take control of the situation instead of being caught off guard.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    That is when you'll learn if the cop is a good cop or a bad cop.
    I agree, in the meantime one could just feel warm and fuzzy until it bites you in the back side.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    Until proved otherwise, any cop I don't know PERSONALLY is no different from any other stranger, a potential threat.

    Most hitchhikers aren't serial killers. Some are.
    I don't pick up hitchhikers.

    Most cops aren't corrupt, violent racist sociopaths. Some are.
    I don't talk to cops without benefit of counsel, nor do I consent to ANY searches.

    There ISN'T any way to tell the difference between a "good" cop and a "bad" one other than THEIR specific behavior. If there's an Android app for that, I haven't seen it.

    The consequences of my not trusting cops? The cop might not like it.
    The consequences of my trusting cops? I could lose my rights, my freedom, or even my life.

    A citizen waiving ANY right in an encounter with a strange cop is every bit as foolish as a cop leaving his gun, radio and vest in the squad car during a traffic stop on a deserted stretch of road in the middle of the night.
    Last edited by Deanimator; 03-13-2013 at 01:41 PM.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I agree, in the meantime one could just feel warm and fuzzy until it bites you in the back side.
    +1

    That does seem to be the method that is suggested by our loving and caring government.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Good Cop, Bad Cop~Knowing which is which?

    It is prudent for the police to assume all citizens are threats. The frequency of gun owners killing, robbing, or committing other crimes demands constant vigilance on an officer's part. You cannot avoid any news story about some crime committed by a gun owner. Crime statistics prove gun owners commit crimes. Furthermore, gun owners kill and enjoy killing police.

    Stereotyping works both ways.

    Now as I wait for gnashing of teeth for using "gun owner" as it relates to violent crimes, please spare yourself the frustration. There are bad police officers who do not uphold their oath and break the social contract. There are bad gun owners who commit crimes and break the social contract. If you distrust the police, it is equitable for the police to distrust you. If you strip us down to our basic essence, we are all human and subject to the same fears, passions, and prejudices.

    The only fair way to judge someone is by their character and the merit of their actions. It is dangerous and certainly harder than using the adversarial approach. I do not throw caution to the wind, but I hate being judged because of a profession.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider116 View Post
    It is prudent for the police to assume all citizens are threats. The frequency of gun owners killing, robbing, or committing other crimes demands constant vigilance on an officer's part. You cannot avoid any news story about some crime committed by a gun owner. Crime statistics prove gun owners commit crimes. Furthermore, gun owners kill and enjoy killing police.

    Stereotyping works both ways.

    Now as I wait for gnashing of teeth for using "gun owner" as it relates to violent crimes, please spare yourself the frustration. There are bad police officers who do not uphold their oath and break the social contract. There are bad gun owners who commit crimes and break the social contract. If you distrust the police, it is equitable for the police to distrust you. If you strip us down to our basic essence, we are all human and subject to the same fears, passions, and prejudices.

    The only fair way to judge someone is by their character and the merit of their actions. It is dangerous and certainly harder than using the adversarial approach. I do not throw caution to the wind, but I hate being judged because of a profession.
    If police do not trust gun owners or anyone else it is not license to violate rights. They should take precautions in their job that are allowed by law. OTOH it would be IMO extremely stupid to assume that a police officer that is unknown should be trusted by giving up a person's rights. Statistics prove there are more honest citizens then honest cops, so by your standards there is no need to carry as most citizens can be trusted.

    And I don't think any post so far has been stereotyping cops, there are both bad cops and good cops, and one cannot tell the difference by just looking at them.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 03-13-2013 at 04:40 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider116 View Post
    SNIP The only fair way to judge someone is by their character and the merit of their actions. It is dangerous and certainly harder than using the adversarial approach. I do not throw caution to the wind, but I hate being judged because of a profession.
    Where does fair come into it? Rational, yes. Based on facts, yes. Fairness--no. This isn't a game where one side receiving unfairness from a referee will be at a disadvantage or lose the game.

    Unfortunately, an OCer may not find out until its too late that the cop confronting him is a bad cop. A few of us can still remember the video or audio of the two cops who stopped (Danbus?). They were oh-so polite and almost friendly to him, but back at the car one said to the other, "There has got to be something we can get him for." The smart cops know they need a contact's voluntary statements in order to convert from a consensual encounter to reasonable suspicion for a detention, or from reasonable suspicion to probable cause. The polite cops are potentionally the most dangerous to liberty and checkbook because you won't know they're bad until its too late.

    And, as long as the Blue Wall of Silence is maintained, I can't really tell who the good cops and bad cops are without getting to know them personally. But, somebody is covering up for the problems in the industry, or doing too little/nothing to correct them. Lets take a couple real-life examples.

    Just a few years ago, NYPD was caught detaining numerous males in certain boroughs. The numbers were astounding. Even more astounding was the number of detentions converted to arrests. Lots and lots and lots of detentions--many, many fewer arrests. The conclusion is inescapeable: people were being detained without reasonable suspicion. The analysis made it into the press. NYPD officially denied it for months. Finally, one single solitarty individual lieutenant came forward and verified what the rest of the department officially denied. Just one lieutenant. Not several. Not nine street cops writing anonymous letters to the editor. Just exactly and only one cop out of thousands. (NYPD has something like 10K cops).

    Just within the last couple years, the harassment of citizen's recording cops doing their official duties finally made it into the press. The internet helped spread the information. Its died down a bit since two federal circuit courts issued decisions saying the 1A protects recording cops doing official duties. But, during the period it was current news--say across nine months--only one cop wrote a blog essay supporting the citizens. Just one.

    In early 2007 or 2008 some cops from a certain northern VA department harassed several (5-6) OCers at a restaurant. It was verified through FOIA requests that every single cop on the shift (7-8) was at the restaurant. The OCers wrote several complaints about rights violations at the restaurant. The department investigated and chief issued a letter detailing the findings. Everything the OCers reported happening at the restaurant was denied. Not one single cop on the shift told the truth about what happened at the restaurant. The department did apologize for some embarrassing e-mails written later that evening and the next day between the cops involved--the emails couldn't be denied. But, not one single cop present told the truth about what they did at the restaurant. Moreover, the e-mails heavily indicated the frame of mind of the cops, and some of the cops' explanations about what occurred at the restaurant were facially absurd. Yet, the commanders connected with the internal investigation chose to overlook those details. So, seven or eight beat cops and at least two commanders and the chief were involved in that coverup.

    The good cops can complain about being painted with a broad brush, but they bring it on themselves by tolerating or even supporting the bad ones with silence. Its not the citizens who are tarnishing the good cops--we're just relating facts and supportable conclusions. Its the bad cops who tarnish the good ones. And, its the actively and passively silent cops who are allowing their own tarnishing.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Good Cop, Bad Cop~Knowing which is which?

    The logic that most citizens are honest so there is no need to carry is flawed because no one carries a gun for the majority of the population (cop or law abiding citizen). It's for that small percentage who would do evil or harm. In case of emergency, break glass.

    I didn't say distrust was not license to violate rights. I merely pointed out the reasons cops distrust people and how this is used as a reason to violate people's rights. The guise of "officer safety" is used to cover manifold sins.

    The contrast was made between the citizens distrusting police and vice versa. It is the nature of the relationship. Neither group should trust the other side without cause. The police should discharge their duties lawfully and professionally. Citizens should not be in the business of killing police or cheering those who do. Citizens should be more active in partnering with their local LEA to protect communities from criminals. Part of this problem is the community's approach to dumping all of the problems on the police instead of partnering up to address issues. The police have absorbed powers that were yielded through citizen apathy and laziness. Police departments should be seeking to correct this through community outreach and other programs that create a working relationship between the police and the citizenry they serve.

    Lawbreakers on both sides should be dealt with accordingly.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider116 View Post
    The logic that most citizens are honest so there is no need to carry is flawed because no one carries a gun for the majority of the population (cop or law abiding citizen). It's for that small percentage who would do evil or harm. In case of emergency, break glass.

    I didn't say distrust was not license to violate rights. I merely pointed out the reasons cops distrust people and how this is used as a reason to violate people's rights. The guise of "officer safety" is used to cover manifold sins.

    The contrast was made between the citizens distrusting police and vice versa. It is the nature of the relationship. Neither group should trust the other side without cause. The police should discharge their duties lawfully and professionally. Citizens should not be in the business of killing police or cheering those who do. Citizens should be more active in partnering with their local LEA to protect communities from criminals. Part of this problem is the community's approach to dumping all of the problems on the police instead of partnering up to address issues. The police have absorbed powers that were yielded through citizen apathy and laziness. Police departments should be seeking to correct this through community outreach and other programs that create a working relationship between the police and the citizenry they serve.

    Lawbreakers on both sides should be dealt with accordingly.
    Where in the helll in this thread has that taken place?
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Good Cop, Bad Cop~Knowing which is which?

    Did I say it took place in this thread?

    No.

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    Good Cop, Bad Cop~Knowing which is which?

    I'll conclude my participation in this thread. You do not know who is a good cop or bad cop until it is too late. Unless you are a clairvoyant or able to discern the hearts of men, it will be the actions that determine good or bad.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider116 View Post
    Did I say it took place in this thread?

    No.
    No you didn't, but you did not make it clear where it took place. Honestly I have not seen it take place very much if at all on this site. It is a rule violation. IMO it was a low blow to the participants of this thread, as I stated I welcome all replies, but that does not mean I will not attack those replies, especially when they are that far out of whack.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Easy, guys. You both enjoy good reputations.

    Myself? My reputation is in tatters, so I can get away with arguing with most anybody.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Easy, guys. You both enjoy good reputations.

    Myself? My reputation is in tatters, so I can get away with arguing with most anybody.
    Hey I got spanked the same time you did. I hope PR does not go away I honestly do welcome his input. I just take liberty to not agree with some of it. I am not going to whimper because somebody posts something I don't agree with, just challenge the fecal matter out of it. Hope nobody takes that personally.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider116 View Post
    It is prudent for the police to assume all citizens are threats. The frequency of gun owners killing, robbing, or committing other crimes demands constant vigilance on an officer's part. You cannot avoid any news story about some crime committed by a gun owner. Crime statistics prove gun owners commit crimes. Furthermore, gun owners kill and enjoy killing police.

    Stereotyping works both ways.

    Now as I wait for gnashing of teeth for using "gun owner" as it relates to violent crimes, please spare yourself the frustration. There are bad police officers who do not uphold their oath and break the social contract. There are bad gun owners who commit crimes and break the social contract. If you distrust the police, it is equitable for the police to distrust you. If you strip us down to our basic essence, we are all human and subject to the same fears, passions, and prejudices.

    The only fair way to judge someone is by their character and the merit of their actions. It is dangerous and certainly harder than using the adversarial approach. I do not throw caution to the wind, but I hate being judged because of a profession.
    If it is "prudent" to treat all citizens as threats...then you are in the wrong job. But, that said, there are good LEO's and bad LEO's...but there are also a LOT of arrogant and misinformed LEOs...and that is the largest threat to LACs that are armed because those LEOs are given the benefit of the doubt when it is their PROFESSION to know and enforce the LAW...not their best guess or recollection of it. But this is just my opinion...but I liken it to "abusive priests"...they should KNOW better and should be treated more harshly when they transgress.
    Last edited by carolina guy; 03-13-2013 at 05:59 PM.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Where in the helll in this thread has that taken place?
    +1000
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Good Cop, Bad Cop~Knowing which is which?

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    No you didn't, but you did not make it clear where it took place. Honestly I have not seen it take place very much if at all on this site. It is a rule violation. IMO it was a low blow to the participants of this thread, as I stated I welcome all replies, but that does not mean I will not attack those replies, especially when they are that far out of whack.
    Sir, I meant no low blows. I apologize for my awkward presentation that caused that belief.

    There are good and bad cops and citizens. The good guys need to get together and reframe the issue as "good versus bad", no matter one's role in society.

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    Good Cop, Bad Cop~Knowing which is which?

    Excerpt:
    Quote Originally Posted by carolina guy View Post
    If it is "prudent" to treat all citizens as threats...then you are in the wrong job.
    A prudent action does not translate to be a correct action. Prudence and liberty do not always see eye to eye either.
    Last edited by palerider116; 03-13-2013 at 07:45 PM.

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    Good Cop, Bad Cop~Knowing which is which?

    If you want to really drill down to LE issues, consider these issues:

    - Poor primary, secondary, and formal education in basic human rights and the US Constitution.

    - The high speed low drag type A personality that departments want.

    - The "virtuous cause" of reducing crime (compounds the first two issues).

    - A citizenry that does not guard it's liberty carefully or zealously.

    - The criminal element on both sides of the badge.

    It's a systematic breakdown that has been occurring long before I was born.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider116 View Post
    If you want to really drill down to LE issues, consider these issues:

    - Poor primary, secondary, and formal education in basic human rights and the US Constitution.

    - The high speed low drag type A personality that departments want.

    - The "virtuous cause" of reducing crime (compounds the first two issues).

    - A citizenry that does not guard it's liberty carefully or zealously.

    - The criminal element on both sides of the badge.

    It's a systematic breakdown that has been occurring long before I was born.
    It also boils down to a misunderstanding of the basic role of the police...they are not primarily "law enforcement" rather they are primarily "order maintenance".

    As a quick question to anyone...care to tell me what law allows a LEO to exercise "discretion" in deciding to enforce a valid law or not?
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    A cop cannot make me free-er. Soooo ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    A cop cannot make me free-er. Soooo ...
    +1

    or more alive...
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I agree, in the meantime one could just feel warm and fuzzy until it bites you in the back side.
    Kinda like cuddling with a wolverine.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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