Terry stopped and searched inside a police station today....well, sorta.

Alright, I hammed it up a bit and it's not what you think. But I was left wondering something.

I stopped into PD today to ask a question. Of course I had my Serpa holster and Glock on under my Carhartt jacket. Pulling this jacket over my gun to OC is uncomfortable. So when I arrived at PD I simply took my gun out of its holster and locked it up in the glove box before entering. As I walk in I am greeted by the Chief and asst. Chief. Both of whom I have known for a long time. The Chief looks at me and says as he is getting up from his desk "put your hands on the wall." He was laughing as was the asst. Chief. I knew that they were giving me a hard time over the issue I had with the detective over OC a few months back and they wanted to poke a little fun at me. I smiled and played along. He starts patting me down in what I would describe as a sloppy, non-serious manner.

But he did feel my holster under my jacket. He stops laughing and pulls my jacket up to find an empty holster. I look at him and say "thought you found something, didn't you?" He responds "for a second I thought I did." He smiles and chuckles once more before starting we start BS'ing about my question that I had. This incident, even though it was a joke got me to wondering. What if I had forgot to remove my concealed gun before entering a police station or wore it in because I didn't know the law or simply didn't care? It would have been stupid on my part, but I'm talking legally. Would this have held up in court or would it have been an illegal search? And what is the punishment for violating this law? Jail, fine, misdemeanor, felony? I don't believe the KRS says.

KRS 237.115(3) says there is no penalty for carrying a CDW with a CDWL in any place a openly carried weapon is legal to be carried.

You can legally carry openly into a police station, you have a CDWL so I think it would be fine.

If not though, it would probably be just like carrying a CDW without a license, so it would just be a class A misdemeanor.

I think if you had of forgotten to unconceal your firearm or leave it in your vehicle you would have created a legal conundrum that could have tied the courts up for a while.

237.110 (16) is where you lose the ability to carry concealled into a police station with the CCDW

you have the law quoted in the last post that potentially creates conflict to use as a defence, not sure how well it would work, could end up as a ky supreme court someday after $1000's of attorney fees and you would more than likey still be quilty of a class A misdemeanor for ccw.

Weather or not it would be an illegal search would be up to the courts also, you stated the whole thing was basicly a joke by the cheif and assistant cheif, but you said that you smiled and played along, which the prosecution in turn will try to argue is implied concent, if sussesful it will become a legal search

If you were concealing a firearm in a public building where there is an ordinance against it, then they may ask you to leave. There is no penalty provided you have your CCDW.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2

If you were carrying concealed you could have been arrested, but the entire search would have been illegal OF COURSE!

People are saying that it is legal to carry concealed anywhere you can carry openly, and this is false. The law says that it shall not be a crime to carry a concealed firearm anywhere that an openly carried firearm can be constitutionally carried, UNLESS specifically mentioned in the KRS.

It is SPECIFICALLY mentioned in krs 237.110 that a CONCEALED firearm CANNOT be carried into a police station or sheriff's office. The law SPECIFICALLY states that these places are off-limits, and that it IS a criminal offense to carry CONCEALED in these places.

In anywhere that is not specifically prohibited under KRS, then it is not a crime to carry concealed if you can carry openly.

The ONLY way you can carry in a police department (unless you are exempted from KRS 237.110 by KRS 527.020) is to carry OPENLY!

Again, this never would have held up in court had you actually had your firearm because it would have been an ILLEGAL search.

langzaiguy said:

If you were concealing a firearm in a public building where there is an ordinance against it, then they may ask you to leave. There is no penalty provided you have your CCDW.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2

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He stated in the second sentence "When I arrived at PD" my understanding was if he has of left his firearm concealed he would have just carried into a police station which is off limits concealed even with a CCDW. Maybe I misunderstood, not just a public building but an actual police station

09jisaac said:

KRS 237.115(3) says there is no penalty for carrying a CDW with a CDWL in any place a openly carried weapon is legal to be carried.

You can legally carry openly into a police station, you have a CDWL so I think it would be fine.

If not though, it would probably be just like carrying a CDW without a license, so it would just be a class A misdemeanor.

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excepting that if you DO have a CDWL, and you carry concealed but don't have said license on you, it is like, a 20$ [Or 50$, I forget the number, but less than 100$] fine; I can't recall the statue that says that specifically, but I recall reading that on the KSP website a year or two ago. I'm sure it still applies.

Just wanted to point that out, it wasn't addressed by SP, or yourself, if he had a CDW License or not, and the penalty of CC'ing with one but not having it. CONFUSING, isn't it?

gutshot said:

Both an "actual police station" and a virtual police station are nothing more than city buildings. OC is legal in these buildings. CC is not allowed, but no penalty can be placed on a person with a CCDW for doing so. 09jissac got it exactly right. KRS 237.115 (3) say there can be no penalty.

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I do have a valid Kentucky CCDW license, it was on my person. As stated I was not concealing a firearm inside of the police station(I didn't have a gun at all.) So if I had CC'd today inside PD and was caught doing so, legally all they could do is ask me to leave?

gutshot said:

Yes. that's right. KRS 237.110 (16a) says you can't CC in there, but doesn't have a penalty. KRS 237.115 (3) says there can't be a penalty for CC in there and KRS 65.870 says the city can't do anything about guns, so you'd be home fr9ee. There is no legal penalty for CC in a police station, they can just ask you to leave.

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I'm not so sure

237.110

(16)Except as provided in KRS 527.020, no license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize any person to carry a concealed firearm into:
(a) Any police station or sheriff's office;



237.115

(3) Unless otherwise specifically provided by the Kentucky Revised Statutes or applicable federal law, no criminal penalty shall attach to carrying a concealed firearm or other deadly weapon with a permit at any location at which an unconcealed firearm or other deadly weapon may be constitutionally carried.

527.020

(4) Persons, except those specified in subsection (5) of this section, licensed to carry a concealed deadly weapon pursuant to KRS 237.110 may carry a firearm or other concealed deadly weapon on or about their persons at all times within the Commonwealth of Kentucky, if the firearm or concealed deadly weapon is carried in conformity with the requirements of that section. Unless otherwise specifically provided by the Kentucky Revised Statutes or applicable federal law, no criminal penalty shall attach to carrying a concealed firearm or other deadly weapon with a permit at any location at which an unconcealed firearm or other deadly weapon may be constitutionally carried. No person or organization, public or private, shall prohibit a person licensed to carry a concealed deadly weapon from possessing a firearm, ammunition, or both, or other deadly weapon in his or her vehicle in compliance with the provisions of KRS 237.110 and 237.115. Any attempt by a person or organization, public or private, to violate the provisions of this subsection may be the subject of an action for appropriate relief or for damages in a Circuit Court or District Court of competent jurisdiction.

(5) (a) The following persons, if they hold a license to carry a concealed deadly weapon pursuant to KRS 237.110, may carry a firearm or other concealed deadly weapon on or about their persons at all times and at all locations within the Commonwealth of Kentucky, without any limitation other than as provided in this subsection:
1. A Commonwealth's attorney or assistant Commonwealth's attorney;
2. A retired Commonwealth's attorney or retired assistant Commonwealth's attorney;
3. A county attorney or assistant county attorney;
4. A retired county attorney or retired assistant county attorney;
5. A justice or judge of the Court of Justice; and
6. A retired or senior status justice or judge of the Court of Justice.

We all seem to agree on 237.110 (16) that you are supose to be prohibited from CC inside of a police station

237.115 (3) and 527.020 (4) both contain language that states "no criminal penalty shall attach to carrying a concealed firearm or other deadly weapon with a permit at any location at which an unconcealed firearm or other deadly weapon may be constitutionally carried." however 237.115 (3) also states "Unless otherwise specifically provided by the Kentucky Revised Statutes or applicable federal law" which would be 237.110 (16)
and the no penalties section in 527.020 only applies if carried in conformity of 237.110 unless you are one of those specified in 527.020 (5)

It would look to me like if you CC into a police station you would be quilty of 527.020, in my opinion but I am not an attorney

(16) Except as provided in KRS 527.020, NO LICENSE issued pursuant to this section SHALL AUTHORIZE any person to carry a CONCEALED FIREARM INTO:
(a) Any police station or sheriff's office;
(b) Any detention facility, prison, or jail;
(c) Any courthouse, solely occupied by the Court of Justice courtroom, or court proceeding;
(d) Any meeting of the governing body of a county, municipality, or special district; or any meeting of the General Assembly or a committee of the General Assembly, except that nothing in this section shall preclude a member of the body, holding a concealed deadly weapon license, from carrying a concealed deadly weapon at a meeting of the body of which he or she is a member;
(e) Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense beer or alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to that purpose;
(f) Any elementary or secondary school facility without the consent of school authorities as provided in KRS 527.070, any child-caring facility as defined in KRS 199.011, any day-care center as defined in KRS 199.894, or any certified family child-care home as defined in KRS 199.8982, except however, any owner of a certified child-care home may carry a concealed firearm into the owner's residence used as a certified child-care home;
(g) An area of an airport to which access is controlled by the inspection of
persons and property; or
(h) Any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law.

What this section means is that your CDWL is null and void in these places. Since your license does NOT authorize you to carry in these places, then you would be charged with "carrying a concealed deadly weapon" if you did carry concealed in one of these places.

It PLAINLY states that "NO LICENSE ISSUED PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION -- SHALL AUTHORIZE -- ANY PERSON TO CARRY A CONCEALED FIREARM INTO..." If you carry a concealed firearm into one of the listed places then it is like carrying concealed without a license. It means that your license to carry concealed is NOT honored in these places, and therefore you are commiting the crime of "carrying a concealed deadly weapon" if you decide to carry a CONCEALED firearm into one of the places listed.

If we were to listen to some here, then we could also carry into a meeting of a governing body concealed without worry of arrest, because we could only be asked to leave. This is NOT the case, and a meeting of a governing body is OFF limits just like a police station is with a concealed firearm! Both are mentioned in this statute, and this is exactly why we can never carry concealed in a police station or a meeting of a governing body.

NO CDWL AUTHORIZES US TO CARRY INTO THE LISTED PLACES. IT AUTHORIZES US TO CARRY IN ALL OTHER PLACES, BUT NOT THOSE THAT ARE SPECIFICALLY LISTED ABOVE! SINCE IT DOES NOT AUTHORIZE US TO CARRY IN THESE PLACES, THEN WE COMMIT THE CRIME OF CCDW IF WE WERE TO CARRY CONCEALED IN THE LISTED PLACES. OUR CDWLs ARE NOT HONORED IN THE PLACES LISTED ABOVE! DO NOT CARRY IN THEM WITH A CONCEALED FIREARM!

THIS IS FROM KRS 237.115:

(3) Unless otherwise specifically provided by the Kentucky Revised Statutes or applicable federal law, no criminal penalty shall attach to carrying a concealed firearm or other deadly weapon with a permit at any location at which an unconcealed firearm or other deadly weapon may be constitutionally carried.

NOTICE IT SAYS "WITH A PERMIT!" YOUR PERMIT IS NOT HONORED INSIDE A POLICE STATION, THEREFORE YOU ARE NOT CARRYING CONCEALED WITH A PERMIT IF YOU WERE INSIDE A POLICE STATION WHILE CARRYING CONCEALED! POLICE STATIONS ARE OFF-LIMITS FOR CONCEALED FIREARMS UNLESS YOU ARE EXEMPTED UNDER KRS 527.020. HERE IS A LIST OF THOSE THAT ARE EXEMPTED:

THE FOLLOWING CAN CARRY AS LONG AS THEY HAVE A CDWL ISSUED BY THE STATE AT ALL LOCATIONS:
1. A Commonwealth's attorney or assistant Commonwealth's attorney;
2. A retired Commonwealth's attorney or retired assistant Commonwealth's attorney;
3. A county attorney or assistant county attorney;
4. A retired county attorney or retired assistant county attorney;
5. A justice or judge of the Court of Justice; and
6. A retired or senior status justice or judge of the Court of Justice.

THE FOLLOWING CAN CARRY IN ALL LOCATIONS (EXCEPT IN DETENTION FACILITIES) WITHOUT HAVING A CDWL:
1. An elected sheriff and full-time and part-time deputy sheriffs certified pursuant to KRS 15.380 to 15.404 when expressly authorized to do so by the unit of government employing the officer;

2. An elected jailer and a deputy jailer who has successfully completed Department of Corrections basic training and maintains his or her current in-service training when expressly authorized to do so by the jailer; and

3. The department head or any employee of a corrections department in any jurisdiction where the office of elected jailer has been merged with the office of sheriff who has successfully completed Department of Corrections basic training and maintains his or her current in-service training when expressly authorized to do so.

(3) The director of the Division of Law Enforcement in the Department of Fish and Wildlife Resources, conservation officers of the Department of Fish and Wildlife Resources, and policemen directly employed by state, county, city, or urban-county governments may carry concealed deadly weapons on or about their person at all times within the Commonwealth of Kentucky, when expressly authorized to do so by law or by the government employing the officer.

Glockster, your permit does not authorize you to carry a concealed deadly weapon ANYWHERE.

The state does not authorize me to carry into Walmart.
The state does not authorize me to carry into your home.

The state only authorizes me to carry a concealed deadly weapon, the places are subject to restrictions of ordinances, statutes and rules.

I see where you are coming from but I disagree. I cannot be charged with carrying a concealed deadly weapon just because I am not authorized to carry into a Walmart. Even authorization to carry concealed into other public buildings is subject to their ordinances.

09jisaac said:

Glockster, your permit does not authorize you to carry a concealed deadly weapon ANYWHERE.

The state does not authorize me to carry into Walmart.
The state does not authorize me to carry into your home.

The state only authorizes me to carry a concealed deadly weapon, the places are subject to restrictions of ordinances, statutes and rules.

I see where you are coming from but I disagree. I cannot be charged with carrying a concealed deadly weapon just because I am not authorized to carry into a Walmart. Even authorization to carry concealed into other public buildings is subject to their ordinances.

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While it is true that Walmart can ask you to leave if you carry and if it was against their policy. It is also true that their policy doesn't make it a crime. Neither does any policy you make at your home against people carrying weapons into your home. You can only ask them to leave. If they don't leave after you ask them to it is then a criminal trespass crime not a weapons crime.

Something to think about since we are talking about conceal carry in this case. If you are truly conceal carrying and doing it well, how are they going to know you are carrying to ask you to leave?

Orion

gutshot said:

All of what you have posted here is true, but what you haven't posted is also true. In the situations you describe here, the crime you would be charged with is violating KRS 527.020 and that statute says,

Unless otherwise specifically provided by the Kentucky Revised Statutes or applicable federal law, no criminal penalty shall attach to carrying a concealed firearm or other deadly weapon with a permit at any location at which an unconcealed firearm or other deadly weapon may be constitutionally carried.

In other words, there can not be a penalty unless some state or federal law provides a penalty for this. I know of no state or federal law that provides a penalty for this conduct. If you know of one, please show me. The fact that your license is not valid there is not important, you are still carrying a weapon "with a permit". Give me an example where your understanding would work. Why would you need that section of 527.020 if you where in a place where 237.110 said your CCDW was valid? Why would you need both a valid license and a statute saying no penalty for not having one? If 237.110 allowed you to carry concealed in some place, why would you need a statute saying no penalty would apply? And if this doesn't cover a place where 237.110 says you can't CC, what is its purpose?

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I will not argue but the fact is plain to see: the statute specifically mentions that a CDWL does NOT authorize ANYONE to carry inside a police station! If you carry inside a police station then you are violating the law. Your license authorizes you to carry a concealed firearm anywhere in the state, EXCEPT those places specifically mentioned in sub-section 16. You would be guilty of violating KRS 527.020, because a police station is SPECIFICALLY mentioned as OFF-LIMITS in KRS 237.110.

If your opinion of the law is true, then why have you always argued that carrying CONCEALED in a meeting of a governing body is illegal? If you argue that we can carry concealed in a police station (even though it is specifically mentioned as being off limits if carrying concealed, even with a permit), then the same would be true in a meeting of a governing body. There are no other statutes that mention these meetings and firearms (like there are for COJ facilities, airports, establishments that serve alcohol, K-12 schools and detention facilities), therefore KRS 237.110 is the only statute that makes the carrying of a concealed firearm into one of these meetings illegal, even with a license.

So, since you are saying that we can carry concealed in a police station since we can carry openly there, wouldn't you now also change your posistion on carrying concealed firearms in a meeting of a governing body? You have always claimed that carrying in these meetings is illegal, but since you are now claiming CC in a police station is legal, would you not also make that same claim for CC in a meeting of a governing body? Both of these places are ONLY mentioned as being off-limits in section 16 of KRS 237.110, so if you are now saying on of these actions is legal, wouldn't both of them be?

09jisaac said:

Glockster, your permit does not authorize you to carry a concealed deadly weapon ANYWHERE.

The state does not authorize me to carry into Walmart.
The state does not authorize me to carry into your home.

The state only authorizes me to carry a concealed deadly weapon, the places are subject to restrictions of ordinances, statutes and rules.

I see where you are coming from but I disagree. I cannot be charged with carrying a concealed deadly weapon just because I am not authorized to carry into a Walmart. Even authorization to carry concealed into other public buildings is subject to their ordinances.

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A CDWL does in fact authorize you to carry a CCDW on your person at all locations within the commonwealth, subject to the laws of the state. It is specifically stated in KRS 237.110 and 527.020. Without the CDWL, you cannot legally carry concealed into walmart or into someone's home. Once you have the CDWL, then you can "legally" carry into walmart and somone's home. You can carry in these places without any permission. You can be asked to leave these places, but the permit is what gives you the ability in the first place to carry a concealed firearm into these places.

(2) An original or renewal license issued pursuant to this section shall:
(a) Be valid throughout the Commonwealth and, except as provided in this section or other specific section of the Kentucky Revised Statutes or federal law, permit the holder of the license to carry firearms, ammunition, or other deadly weapons, or a combination thereof, at any location in the Commonwealth;
(b) Unless revoked as provided by law, be valid for a period of five (5) years from the date of issuance;
(c) Authorize the holder of the license to carry a concealed firearm or other deadly weapon, or a combination thereof, on or about his or her person; and
(d) Authorize the holder of the license to carry ammuniti

Glockster, just because something does not hold a penalty does not mean it is legal.

65.870 recently did not have any penalty for local governments who make ordinances concerning firearms. Lawrence county had an ordinance in conflict with this statute, their ordinance was illegal but without penalty.

To address the original question, IMO since you went along with the search it was consensual & evidence found thereby would not be suppressed.

KYGlockster said:

the statute specifically mentions that a CDWL does NOT authorize ANYONE to carry inside a police station! If you carry inside a police station then you are violating the law.
Your license authorizes you to carry a concealed firearm anywhere in the state, EXCEPT those places specifically mentioned in sub-section 16. You would be guilty of violating KRS 527.020, because a police station is SPECIFICALLY mentioned as OFF-LIMITS in KRS 237.110.

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From reading the applicable statute posted here, if you carry concealed inside a police station then you are violating the law.
I didn't read anything saying that OC in a police station is illegal.
Perhaps it's a failure of perception, but I've seen statutes & signs which only address concealed carry. It's like they don't realize OC exists. But in most cases they'd also be upset if someone OC'd.

09jisaac said:

Glockster, just because something does not hold a penalty does not mean it is legal.

65.870 recently did not have any penalty for local governments who make ordinances concerning firearms. Lawrence county had an ordinance in conflict with this statute, their ordinance was illegal but without penalty.

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What? You said, "...just because something does not hold a PENALTY does NOT mean it is LEGAL." This is exactly what I am trying to get through.

You all are trying to say that there is no penalty for carrying in a police station concealed. When, in fact, there is a penalty, and that is you are violating KRS 527.020.

(2) An original or renewal license issued pursuant to this section shall:

(a) Be valid throughout the Commonwealth and, EXCEPT AS PROVIDED IN THIS SECTION or other specific section of the Kentucky Revised Statutes or federal law, permit the holder of the license to carry firearms, ammunition, or other deadly weapons, or a combination thereof, at ANY LOCATION in the Commonwealth;

A CDWL issued under authority of KRS 237.110 is not valid if you are using that license to carry a concealed firearm into a police station.

I am about to search all previous posts from several users where they have stated that it is illegal to carry in a police station, that have now for some reason changed their opinions, even though the law plainly states that a CDWL is NOT valid in a police station.

If your license is NOT VALID in a police station (which it isn't because KRS 237.110 SPECIFICALLY says so), and you are carrying a CONCEALED firearm, then you ARE violating KRS 527.020 by carrying a CONCEALED DEADLY WEAPON WITHOUT A LICENSE! Yes, you may have a CDWL, but that CDWL is NOT valid in a POLICE STATION, therefore carrying concealed while in said police station you would be illegally CCDW, because your license is not VALID while carrying concealed in a POLICE STATION.

Obviously I cannot come up with the correct terminology to get some to understand this so I am finished with this thread. If you all want to carry concealed in a police station then be my guest. But, when you are arrested for CCDW don't say you were not warned, because your LICENSE is NOT valid in a POLICE STATION. If you are carrying on a non-active license, then you are in violation of state law! Once you leave the police station your license is again recognized, but if you are carrying CONCEALED IN a police station it is not while inside that station!

Glockster, none of us are saying it is legal. It is clearly illegal to carry concealed into a police station. That is not being argued. We are arguing that it is without penalty.

MKEgal, Kentucky's constitution does not allow the government to regulate OC. It is known to be legal to carry openly into a police station. No Conceal Carry signs are somewhat common in the Commonwealth because they are the only ones that are legal for most government agencies to enact and use.

MKEgal said:

To address the original question, IMO since you went along with the search it was consensual & evidence found thereby would not be suppressed.

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But wouldn't a legal terry stop need to be because they had reason to believe a crime has been, will or is being committed?

self preservation said:

But wouldn't a legal terry stop need to be because they had reason to believe a crime has been, will or is being committed?

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If you give them permission to infringe on your rights then they can basically do what they want legally.