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Thread: The Census

  1. #1
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    The Census

    To prevent the unintentional further derailment of another thread.

    It was claimed by another poster whom of which, I BELIEVE, is too lazy to read the laws he tries to cite.

    It was claimed that there is a 5000 dollar (FRN) penalty for failing to answer all the questions on a census form. The laws cited were 18 USC 3571 and 13 USC 221. The reason given for the government NOT collecting a 5000 dollar fine was that the government was too lazy to do so. YET the government will go after anyone else for that kind of cash even misdemeanors and speeding tickets. The 5000 dollar reference is found in title 18. You can skip the reading of that.

    13 USC 221 - Refusal or neglect to answer questions; false answers
    (a) Whoever, being over eighteen years of age, refuses or willfully neglects, when requested by the Secretary, or by any other authorized officer or employee of the Department of Commerce or bureau or agency thereof acting under the instructions of the Secretary or authorized officer, to answer, to the best of his knowledge, any of the questions on any schedule submitted to him in connection with any census or survey provided for by subchapters I, II, IV, and V of chapter 5 of this title, applying to himself or to the family to which he belongs or is related, or to the farm or farms of which he or his family is the occupant, shall be fined not more than $100.
    (b) Whoever, when answering questions described in subsection (a) of this section, and under the conditions or circumstances described in such subsection, willfully gives any answer that is false, shall be fined not more than $500.
    Emphasis mine.

    Well I guess that disproves his 5000 dollar argument right off of the bat.

    Now on to Chapter 5!

    SUBCHAPTER I—MANUFACTURES, MINERAL INDUSTRIES, AND OTHER BUSINESSES ( 131–132)
    SUBCHAPTER II—POPULATION, HOUSING, AND UNEMPLOYMENT ( 141–143_to_146)
    SUBCHAPTER III—GOVERNMENTS ( 161–163)
    SUBCHAPTER IV—INTERIM CURRENT DATA ( 181–184)
    SUBCHAPTER V—GEOGRAPHIC SCOPE, PRELIMINARY AND SUPPLEMENTAL STATISTICS, AND USE OF SAMPLING ( 191–196)
    I don't know about you but I will be looking in, think about, SUBCHAPTER II.
    So let's look there for what is being requested of us.



     141. Population and other census information
    [ 142. Repealed.]
    [ 143 to 146. Repealed.]
    I don't see where we are required to give anything but the number of people living there as data.

    For further education please read section 1 about who a respondent is
    While I realize this was simply the census thing, this level of reading is required when going through all of your local and federal laws. Who/what maybe the person that the law refers to is often not who you, or who/what the law enforcers, think it is.

    I publicly advocate following laws as written. If you wish to challenge me on any law, and I have been wrong before, then please have a strong citation. Also please read any counter citations that I or anyone else may respond with.

    I have been accused of giving legal advice on this site and I am careful to never give legal advice. I tell people to read the law. I will tell them how I see the laws applying however I do not tell people what actions to take based on the law (that would be legal advice). I am not a member of the private law club called the BAR Association nor have I taken the test they offer.
    Last edited by Freedom1Man; 03-14-2013 at 09:18 PM.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  2. #2
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    When I received the form in the mail, I filled out the portion stating how many people lived in my apartment and sent it in.

    Some time after the "deadline" I got a knock on my door from a census worker

    She informed me that they had no record of my sending in the form and needed to ask me some questions. I informed her that I was the only person living here and that was all I was going to say. She kept trying to ask questions and said it was required by the Constitution and federal law. I told her I have provided all info needed for the constitutional function of the census and to have a nice day. I also reminded her that congress can not pass laws that violate the constitution and cited the 1st, 4th, and 5th amendments thereof.

    She implied that I was required to answer all of the questions and said it would take about 10-15 minutes if I was cooperative. I told her that I would like to know the process by which I would be compensated for my time. She said they did not do that. I informed her that would be a violation of the 13th amendment. (a bit of a stretch, I know but what the hell)

    I asked if I was legally required to answer the questions and she implied that I was. I then said something to the effect of " If you, as a government agent are going to continue questioning me, would you please marandize me before proceeding any further.

    She gave up on asking about me and my apartment and started to ask about people in other units. I told her I would not be telling her anything about anyone and said she might want to try the apartment manager and gave his apartment number. she said "I tried that already and he will not say anything about anyone"

    she was a pretty nice lady and both her and I were pretty respectful toward each other. several times during the conversation I told her it was nothing personal against her and I meant no disrespect but that I must stand by my beliefs.

    At one point when I told her I was not comfortable sharing personal info with anyone when not required she told me that all the info was confidential and could not by law be shared with other agencies. I told her that when the federal government rounded up Americans of Japanese decent during World War 2 and placed them in prison camps, they received the info from the census bureau and the law did not stop them then. She seemed unaware of this fact and walked away learning something new.


    EDIT: She told me another worker/supervisor would be coming back but no one else did.
    Last edited by END_THE_FED; 03-15-2013 at 12:54 AM.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

  3. #3
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    They kept calling me for awhile after telling me I had an incomplete form. They never got more than the quantity of the people living here. Eventually they gave up.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 03-15-2013 at 08:23 AM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  4. #4
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    You'd be surprised what they got from other sources and not from you!

    They did not give up. They merely went elsewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by END_THE_FED View Post
    When I received the form in the mail, I filled out the portion stating how many people lived in my apartment and sent it in.
    Good on ya! And to OPIE, Freedom!Man. That was a concise possitive statement of law. I wish that the entire corpus was as concise to allow a proof of non-existence of a law requiring a census response. Until then, Holy City is the answer for me. We have only the rights that we defend.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    When I filled out the form, all I gave them was the number of people at the address. I never got a call, but someone did come and told me they did not get my form. I told her to go back and look again. I refused to answer any further questions. She left fairly soon after noticing that I was OC. Never heard anything more.
    Last edited by Ajetpilot; 03-15-2013 at 01:13 PM.

  7. #7
    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    I got the "long form" census in the 1990 census. The form informed me I had to answer all questions truthfully, so I did. I filled out the number of people at the address, then all the questions asking how many toilets I had, how far I drove to work etc all got the same answer... NOYFB. All questions answered and answered truthfully; I never heard back from them.
    Last edited by F350; 03-15-2013 at 01:30 PM.

  8. #8
    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    when we got our long form "information request", we responded with the number of people in the house, ages and ethnicity. The rest we ignored (including names and phone numbers) and mailed the long form back. Since our entire yard is fenced with a locked gate, we never heard back. My wife did see some "sketchy" characters with clipboards over the next couple months stop, look at the gate and then try to hail her from the curb (which she ignored).

    Perhaps they eventually took my "P.S." to heart to do some data mining in the numerous government owned and operated databases that have already been paid for with the confiscatory taxes and fees already charged for any additional information they wish to use.
    Last edited by carolina guy; 03-15-2013 at 03:39 PM.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

  9. #9
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    You'd be surprised what they got from other sources and not from you!

    They did not give up. They merely went elsewhere.
    You are probably absolutely right about that. They still didn't get it from me though.....
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  10. #10
    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    You are probably absolutely right about that. They still didn't get it from me though.....
    +1 Why should I be "required" to provide information that already resides in a government database? I do not recall anything in the Constitution about "citizens must comply to make the census easier to get duplicate information."
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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