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A liberal behavior that I find extremely annoying

minarchist

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When a person looks at the available evidence and comes to a sincere conclusion, free of a hidden agenda or ulterior motive, that happens to be politically incorrect, liberals foam at the mouth and accuse this individual of moral turpitude. It's as if they either lack the intelligence to understand the difference between a descriptive statement (an assertion about what is) and a prescriptive statement (an assertion about what should be), or they are deliberately blurring the distinction between these two items. This behavior stifles free inquiry and is absolutely repugnant to the ideals of the Englightenment (which is ironic, since the Left likes to think that they are carrying the torch for the Enlightenment). I shall give two examples.

A person who concludes that the median male IQ is higher than the median female IQ, and who does not state that women should have fewer rights than men, is treated as absolutely wicked. This person has done nothing but make a descriptive statement, which can be debated on its own merits, but liberals act as if this person has made an evil prescriptive statement. This individual can point to well-designed studies and form a highly cogent argument explaining the data (our male hunter-gatherer ancestors had to form complex hunting strategies, whereas our female hunter-gatherer ancestors mostly only needed to engage in rote memorization of edible and non-edible things, etc.), yet liberals will act as if this person is saying that women should be kept barefoot and pregnant, which is a gross non-sequitur. They will shriek at the top of their lungs that this person is claiming that there are no intelligent women (how they get that from " the median male IQ is higher than the median female IQ" is completely beyond me), and try to ruin this person's life (not at all unlike how scientists who challenged prevailing dogmas were treated centuries ago).

A person who concludes that the median IQ of populations whose human ancestors evolved in temeperate areas is higher than the median IQ of populations whose human ancestors evolved in tropical areas, and who does not advocate fewer rights for members of the latter, is literally treated as being worse than a child molestor. This individual can point to well-designed studies (such as those by Murray and Hernstein, who were called neo-Nazis, even though the latter was an Ashkenazi Jew) and form a highly cogent argument explaining the data (humans are primates, which are inherently tropical animals, and those humans who lived in temperate areas therefore faced much stronger selection pressure for intelligence (having to plan ahead for winter, and biodiversity is inversely proportional to latitude, thereby leaving less game for them to hunt) than those living relatively easy lives in the tropics, causing more unintelligent persons per capita to be culled from the herd in temperate areas than in tropical areas), yet liberals will act as thought this person is calling for certain people to be gassed, which is atrocious slander. They will stomp their feet and demand that said person be severely punished (e.g., if this person is in academia, his or her professional life will become very unpleasant at the hands of the namby pamby bullies).

This is all very reminiscent of George Orwell's 1984. Near the end of the story, Winston Smith sincerely thought that his tormentor was holding up four fingers (and he was correct in this conclusion), but his descriptive statement was treated as evil. How can there be any evil in stating one's sincere conclusion after looking at the evidence, devoid of any hidden agenda or ulterior motive, and with the love of truth as one's only reason for doing so? I find it absolutely reprehensible that liberals think that science should be held hostage by emotions.
 

georg jetson

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Hmmm. Let's test this.

I conclude that the theory that human ancestors were "hunter gatherers" is false. I conclude that human intelligence has devolved over time.
 

marshaul

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It is impossible to create a quantity such as "IQ" in an objective fashion what is not inherently biased towards the prescriptive definition of terms like "intelligence" applied by its creators.

The only thing stupider than "IQ testing" is ascribing it any merit, and the only this stupider than that is this thread.

Incidentally, some of the smartest people I know come from "warm regions" (e.g. Africa), and some of the dumbest from cold (e.g. England).

It is my belief, from experience, that any "data" to which you refer is undoubtedly the result of confirmation bias, in addition to relying on the less-than-useless criterion of "quantified" intelligence.

There are certainly cultural reasons for certain evidenced traits, and it's likely that climate influences culture in predictable ways, but that's as much agreement as you'll elicit from me.
 
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minarchist

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Hmmm. Let's test this.

I conclude that the theory that human ancestors were "hunter gatherers" is false. I conclude that human intelligence has devolved over time.

I chose just two examples of areas where liberals are dogmatic bullies. This phenomenon is not confined to these two examples. Do you have any thoughts on this phenomenon?

Out of curiosity though, what makes you conclude that something so incontrovertible is false? There are still a few hunter-gatherers around. It is obvious that everyone was a hunter-gatherer if you go back in time far enough.
 

minarchist

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It is impossible to create a quantity such as "IQ" in an objective fashion what is not inherently biased towards the prescriptive definition of terms like "intelligence" applied by its creators.

The only thing stupider than "IQ testing" is ascribing it any merit, and the only this stupider than that is this thread.

Discussing the two particular examples that I chose, on their own merits, is fine, but they are really beside the point.

Why do you think that liberals confuse descriptive and prescriptive statements and demonize people for their sincerely-held descriptive conclusions? Do you agree or disagree that science should be free of such bullying?

Incidentally, some of the smartest people I know come from "warm regions" (e.g. Africa), and some of the dumbest from cold (e.g. England).

I see that you, like the liberals mentioned in the OP, seem to think (your comment makes no sense in any other context, as I never denied that you can have temperate morons and tropical geniuses) that different medians somehow means that the two distributions can have no overlap, which is absurd.

Group A can have a higher median than Group B, and yet the highest in B can be way higher than the lowest in A.
 
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georg jetson

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I chose just two examples of areas where liberals are dogmatic bullies. This phenomenon is not confined to these two examples. Do you have any thoughts on this phenomenon?

I understand. My thought is that a belief that humans evolved from animals gives credence to arguments that some "races"(whatever that means) are superior to others. Since liberals taut themselves as "anti-racist", it exposes a serious inconsistency in their thinking as it is my experience that liberals tend to believe humans have evolved from animals.

Out of curiosity though, what makes you conclude that something so incontrovertible is false? There are still a few hunter-gatherers around. It is obvious that everyone was a hunter-gatherer if you go back in time far enough.

I don't intend to derail your thread. I disagree that it is incontrovertible, but I'll leave it at that. I do intend to start such a thread one day, but I just don't have the time right now. AND it is lower on my thread starting priorities... at the top being "Can we regain our Republic by working within the system?".

Getting back to your OP... I see dogma and dogmatic bullies everywhere. Liberal, conservative, science, religion etc...
 
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minarchist

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I understand. My thought is that a belief that humans evolved from animals gives credence to arguments that some "races"(whatever that means) are superior to others. Since liberals taut themselves as "anti-racist", it exposes a serious inconsistency in their thinking as it is my experience that liberals tend to believe humans have evolved from animals.

That's just it: whatever is true is true regardless of mere human thoughts on the matter. Applying a pejorative (such as "sexist" or "racist" with the two random examples that I chose) changes absolutely nothing when it comes to objective reality.

I don't intend to derail your thread. I disagree that it is incontrovertible, but I'll leave it at that. I do intend to start such a thread one day, but I just don't have the time right now. AND it is lower on my thread starting priorities... at the top being "Can we regain our Republic by working within the system?".

I appreciate this.

Getting back to your OP... I see dogma and dogmatic bullies everywhere. Liberal, conservative, science, religion etc...

Indeed, but since liberals control the educational system and the entertainment and media industries, their bullying is the most pernicious (not to mention obnoxious).
 

minarchist

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Imagine a hypothetical man, Mr. X. Mr. X treats men and women equally, and befriends quality people regardless of ancestry. Mr. X is a friendly, upstanding, honest citizen. He is even an avid OCer. :cool:

Mr. X likes to read a lot, and after carefully considering all of the evidence, he comes to the two example conclusion in the OP. Is it fair to confuse Mr. X's descriptive statements with sinister prescriptive statements and treat Mr. X as if he is a lowlife scumbag?

What is disconcerting is that this Marxist behavior spills over the confines of liberalism, with various non-liberals joining in the irrational Orwellian two minute hatefest. How utterly pathetic.
 

georg jetson

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That's just it: whatever is true is true regardless of mere human thoughts on the matter. Applying a pejorative (such as "sexist" or "racist" with the two random examples that I chose) changes absolutely nothing when it comes to objective reality.

We are slave to our perception. Science is one of our best attempts to interject as much objective reality into our perception, but it can exclude some objective reality as well.

Marshaul's post does well to expose the fallacy of true objective reality. Reality is always viewed through human perception. What test do you use to quantify IQ?


I appreciate this.



Indeed, but since liberals control the educational system and the entertainment and media industries, their bullying is the most pernicious (not to mention obnoxious).

Agreed. Though one of the worst assaults to our education system has been "no child left behind"... a "Republican conservative" idea.
 
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minarchist

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We are slave to our perception. Science is one of our best attempts to interject as much objective reality into our perception, but it can exclude some objective reality as well.

Marshaul's post does well to expose the fallacy of true objective reality. Reality is always viewed through human perception. What test do you use to quantify IQ?

The problem with marshaul's post is that it displays the precise behavior that I complain about in the OP. While he at least goes beyond this by doing a little arguing against the two conclusions on their merits, that is still outside the scope of this thread, as the two examples were meant to merely illustrate the larger phenomenon.

Agreed. Though one of the worst assaults to our education system has been "no child left behind"... a "Republican conservative" idea.

That is why establishment Republicans should be left in the dust for men like Ron Paul.
 

georg jetson

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The problem with marshaul's post is that it displays the precise behavior that I complain about in the OP. While he at least goes beyond this by doing a little arguing against the two conclusions on their merits, that is still outside the scope of this thread, as the two examples were meant to merely illustrate the larger phenomenon.

Yes. I realize now that my response accentuated the merits of the example arguments and less to the dogmatic bullying phenomenon. With that I defer to my original comment about liberals and the inconsistency in the tendency of their beliefs.

Further, I'll say that it appears that the US population is less able to engage in critical thinking. I base this on the discussions I see in the Senate about gun control and the apparent expectation that many people will accept such emotive argument. Dogma will flourish where emotive argument has replaced reason.

That is why establishment Republicans should be left in the dust for men like Ron Paul.

Agreed. Let's make it happen.
 
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minarchist

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Yes. I realize [strike] k[/strike] now that my response accentuated the merits of the example arguments and less to the dogmatic bullying phenomenon. With that I defer to my original comment about liberals and the inconsistency in the tendency of their beliefs.

Further, I'll say that it appears that the US population is less able to engage in critical thinking. I base this on the discussions I see in the Senate about gun control and the apparent expectation that many people will accept such emotive argument. Dogma will flourish where emotive argument has replaced reason.

Do you agree that it is wrong to demonize a man who loves his mother, his wife or gf, and treats women with respect, merely because he also happens to have reached the first conclusion in the OP?

Agreed. Let's make it happen.

I will support his son if he runs.
 

MyWifeSaidYes

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Emotion is the problem...

I recently watched yet another video of Der Führer, umm, I mean, Diane Feinstein, and got a little ticked off.

My wife told me I should not be wasting my time yelling at the screen and should be coming up with a way to counter the anti-gun arguments.

I explained to my wife that the problem, simply, is emotion. Diane Feinstein, Carolyn McCarthy and others, have had their lives touched by gun violence.

There is no force in Heaven or on Earth that will be able to make these people see that the actual problem is the person behind the gun and not the gun itself. LOGICALLY, they know that there is no possible way to legislate good behavior, so they EMOTIONALLY attack the items they have legislated themselves the ability to legislate.

There is, simply, no way to fight an emotional fight on logical grounds.

There is no hospital that would allow a doctor to operate on a family member due to the emotion involved. Likewise, a judge should recuse himself or herself from any case involving family.

Therein lies the resolution...disallow members of congress from submitting, lobbying for or voting on legislation to which they are EMOTIONALLY attached.

Yeah. That'll happen.

Right after they vote for congressional term limits, the OTHER way to prevent a lot of stupid legislation.
 

eye95

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You don't fight to change Feinstein and her ilk. Whatever refuting you do is done to impact others who happen to be listening. If you let her be emotional, and you stay rational, then she comes off as a ranting idiot, and you come off as level-headed. Folks who have not already made up their minds will flock to the rational POV. Folks who have already made up their minds, on either side of the issue, are not your target.

Don't waste your time trying to change an emotional anti-gunner. Also as important: Don't go for the rah-rahs from the folks who already agree with you. That is off-putting to the open-minded folks whom you are really trying to reach.
 

minarchist

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What is the point of this thread? Engrish please, some of us are slower than others.

The truth is what it is regardless of how anyone feels. There is a sharp distinction between making a claim about what is and making a claim about what ought to be, and lowlifes on the Left endeavor to blur this distinction in an effort to demonize those who seek the truth in forbidden areas.
 
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