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Thread: 4th Circuit Federal Court decision on RAS and Open carry

  1. #1
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    4th Circuit Federal Court decision on RAS and Open carry

    A part of a 4th Circuit Federal Court decision on RAS and Open carry. United States v. Black
    http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions...d/115084.p.pdf

    “Third, it is undisputed that under the laws of North Carolina, which permit its residents to openly carry firearms . . . Troupe’s gun was legally possessed and displayed. The Government contends that because other laws prevent convicted felons from possessing guns, the officers could not know whether Troupe was lawfully in possession of the gun until they performed a records check. . . . We are not persuaded. Being a felon in possession of a firearm is not the default status.

    More importantly, where a state permits individuals to openly carry firearms, the exercise of this right, without more, cannot justify an investigatory detention. Permitting such a justification would eviscerate Fourth Amendment protections for lawfully armed individuals in those states.”

    A good analysis of the case. http://www.fedagent.com/columns/case...ard-of-seizure
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member fjpro2a's Avatar
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    Win one, lose three

    This is an exceptional ruling!!! In fact, it gives me reason to hope. Why am I such a pessimist, though? Because for every new victory we eek out, it seems as if three other new rulings go against us. Maybe it's because I am getting up there in age.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    4th Circuit Federal Court decision on RAS and Open carry

    Michigan isn't a part of the fourth circuit...
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member fjpro2a's Avatar
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    Did you forget trhe rest of the post?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Michigan isn't a part of the fourth circuit...
    AND????????. I wasn't aware Venator implied that Michigan was part of the fourth circuit. Why this truncated response?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fjpro2a View Post
    AND????????. I wasn't aware Venator implied that Michigan was part of the fourth circuit. Why this truncated response?
    I don't believe that a ruling on NC law has any precedent to Michigan laws. Though the ruling is something we've known all along I dont believe it has any impact on Michigan but looking at it again this is federal court and because our laws here are similar somewhat it could be. Overall it's a nice read to see the courts get it right.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Been discussed at length in other threads.

    I challenge you to use OCDO's search function to find the relevant threads.....when you give up, in frustration, let me know and I'll post the links to those threads.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikestilly View Post
    I don't believe that a ruling on NC law has any precedent to Michigan laws. Though the ruling is something we've known all along I dont believe it has any impact on Michigan but looking at it again this is federal court and because our laws here are similar somewhat it could be. Overall it's a nice read to see the courts get it right.
    While it might not be precedential, it is persuasive. In other words, showing that a number of other circuits hold a particular view can persuade a circuit facing it's own first impression, or even revisiting the issue after some passage of time since it last faced the issue, can influence the court. Which is why court-wwatchers keep scorecards of who and how many go each way.

    Further, if the 6th Circuit has not already weighed in on the matter, there is always the question of do they want to be the case sent to SCOTUS to resolve the difference of opinions among the Circuits? Yes, going along to get along - it's the new social justice!

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    4th Circuit Federal Court decision on RAS and Open carry

    Quote Originally Posted by fjpro2a View Post
    AND????????. I wasn't aware Venator implied that Michigan was part of the fourth circuit. Why this truncated response?
    This was posted in the Michigan Forum. Given Michigan isn't in the fourth circuit, this decision is of limited value in Michigan
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  9. #9
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    4th Circuit Federal Court decision on RAS and Open carry

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    While it might not be precedential, it is persuasive. In other words, showing that a number of other circuits hold a particular view can persuade a circuit facing it's own first impression, or even revisiting the issue after some passage of time since it last faced the issue, can influence the court. Which is why court-wwatchers keep scorecards of who and how many go each way.

    Further, if the 6th Circuit has not already weighed in on the matter, there is always the question of do they want to be the case sent to SCOTUS to resolve the difference of opinions among the Circuits? Yes, going along to get along - it's the new social justice!

    stay safe.
    Persuasive precedence isn't something I'd encourage the average OCer to bank on.

    This thread/case (From Michigan's POV) makes interesting legal scholastic discussion, but that's about it.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  10. #10
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    4th Circuit Federal Court decision on RAS and Open carry

    Quote Originally Posted by mikestilly View Post
    I don't believe that a ruling on NC law has any precedent to Michigan laws. Though the ruling is something we've known all along I dont believe it has any impact on Michigan but looking at it again this is federal court and because our laws here are similar somewhat it could be. Overall it's a nice read to see the courts get it right.
    Mike and I agree for once, without slamming each other! Mark your calendars, folk!
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  11. #11
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    What about this excerpt:
    Additionally, the Government avers it would be "foolhardy" for the officers to "go about their business while allowing a stranger in their midst to possess a firearm." We are not persuaded.

  12. #12
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    4th Circuit Federal Court decision on RAS and Open carry

    Quote Originally Posted by bigt8261 View Post
    What about this excerpt:
    Good stuff indeed -- still of limited value in MI.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Great reading. Thanks for the useful citation

    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    A part of a 4th Circuit Federal Court decision on RAS and Open carry. United States v. Black
    http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions...d/115084.p.pdf
    Great reading!

  14. #14
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    Good read. Too bad it involved a scumbag felon actually breaking the law. But I digress, good to see even those facts did not away the appeals court from making a very just ruling.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: 4th Circuit Federal Court decision on RAS and Open carry

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Mike and I agree for once, without slamming each other! Mark your calendars, folk!
    Duly noted!
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    As far as I am concerned, this is not any sort of landmark.This is simply what the constitution, and rulings such as Terry v Ohio lay out for us.

    Conducting a stop, without any other suspicion, solely for lawful OCing, is a federal color of law violation on the part of any cops who conduct such a stop, and very likely a violation of state law, depending on the state in question. It is very simple, no RAS and no warrant means no stop. The idiotic words most of us old timers have heard "We don't know if you're a felon" has the key words "we don't know", a dead giveaway that they have no RAS and by federal law cannot stop you without your consent.

    In my opinion, the entire matter could hardly be simpler.
    Last edited by Michigander; 03-19-2013 at 07:27 PM.

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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    As far as I am concerned, this is not any sort of landmark.
    I do not entirely disagree with you. However, this does nothing but strengthen the "argument" of what the 2nd amendment is for.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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    4th Circuit Federal Court decision on RAS and Open carry

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    While it might not be precedential, it is persuasive. In other words, showing that a number of other circuits hold a particular view can persuade a circuit facing it's own first impression, or even revisiting the issue after some passage of time since it last faced the issue, can influence the court. Which is why court-wwatchers keep scorecards of who and how many go each way.

    Further, if the 6th Circuit has not already weighed in on the matter, there is always the question of do they want to be the case sent to SCOTUS to resolve the difference of opinions among the Circuits? Yes, going along to get along - it's the new social justice!

    stay safe.
    And, more importantly, that ruling cites St. John v. McColley from New Mexico. St. John was not precedential, but it was persuasive on the 4th Circuit. The idea that the unadorned act of exercising a fundamental and protected right cannot possibly provide reasonable suspicion is gaining steam--nationwide.

    As well it should. Without that underlying idea, the exercise of any right can easily be infringed! The idea is even more simply stated (and even more obviously true): The exercise of a right may not even be questioned, else it is no longer a right!


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    Courts don't like to have conflicting opinions on controversial issues unless precedent has been well established or the opinion is supported by convincing evidence. So while this does not apply directly to Michigan or anyone else outside of the particular circuit making the ruling, it still carries weight and can be attached as ancillary information/supplemental/notice of record/etc. BUT why would you need it in Michigan? The MSP (Michigan State Police) has done an excellent job of putting out a three page brief on Open-Carry and it spells it out in black and white as to what and how law enforcement in Michigan should act. If you encounter a law enforcement officer who has not read it, carry a copy for him/her (I do).

    MSP Legal Update #86
    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...2_336854_7.pdf

    Legislative Law
    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...s/firearms.pdf

    Food for thought...

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