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Thread: Retention, retention, retention!!

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    Regular Member Gr8gunz's Avatar
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    Retention, retention, retention!!

    I am paranoid about retention especially when I OC which is 99% of the time. Nothing is more frightening to me than some cokehead grabbing my handgun from behind. To prevent that I carry a level III Safariland holster. Yes, it slows down the draw a bit but it's a good trade off for me. I don't have to be Doc Holiday out there. There are lots more level III holsters out there now since I bought mine but I haven't found one that does the job any better than the Safari. Anybody else out there use a level III?

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    Regular Member PFC HALE's Avatar
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    Retention, retention, retention!!

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    HOPE FOR THE BEST, EXPECT THE WORST, PREPARE FOR WAR

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Take a martial arts class that is slanted toward weapons retention, it will go a long way to ease your mind. Taking a gun from a person is not all that easy if they have some sense of awareness. Most criminals are probably paranoid committing a crime, so probably the last thing they want is a interaction where they might get shot.

    You can also find videos on YouTube but make sure they are professionals that are doing the videos and have common sense techniques. If the actions seem to complicated you probably will not remember them. Do not practice them at home with a loaded gun, or even a unloaded one. Buy a cheap airsoft the same as your gun.

    I had two unsuccessful gun grabs as a LEO, and both were with a thumb snap leather duty holster, both from behind. One a nurse friend that thought she was being cute, I fractured her wrist before I realized it was her. The other was a very serious attempt from a man's wife that I was trying to handcuff, she suffered a broken nose. The procedure I used is very simple. Grab the hand on the gun force it down to keep a draw from happening, and then spin your body away from the grabber. They will lose grip and balance, sometimes resulting in injuring their arm. While doing this their face will become a target for the off hand, they will be to busy trying to keep balance to defend. Most grabs are from the back, but if one should come from the front, grab the hand and start punching, depending on the location of your gun turn to bend the wrist of the grabber backwards.

    I suggest going to a MA instructor though rather than videos or written directions. It is just not the same as hands on.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    I use the Force and "push" them back without ever touching them.

    As to the holster, which gets me back OT, I use two types depending on the situation.

    Level 2 retention holster1: http://www.blackhawk.com/product/Spo...,1146,1410.htm

    Level I retention holster2: http://www.desantisholster.com/store...HOLSTERS/Viper

    I use the Viper when I am hunting/out in the woods. Covers the pistol more than the Blackhawk, which is important to me in the Lowcountry.






    1 Not a advertisement or endorsement of this product.
    2 Not a advertisement or endorsement of this product.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Gr8gunz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    <snip>
    I suggest going to a MA instructor though rather than videos or written directions. It is just not the same as hands on.
    Thanks for the lecture but MA is not an option. I am a disabled vet confined to a wheelchair and have my Sarfariland strapped to the side and very visible. I am quite aware of my surroundings thank you but I'm quite sure that any physical resistence I could mount against a BG would be rather fruitless. I would suggest to you that most of us know what's best for our particular situation and make some inquiries before launching into a lengthy and unneeded speech of what you think we should do as opposed to what we are doing. BTW, in case you're interested, I am an NRA certified instructor and a CCW instructor for the state of Arizona.

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    Regular Member Gr8gunz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I use the Force and "push" them back without ever touching them.

    As to the holster, which gets me back OT, I use two types depending on the situation.

    Level 2 retention holster1: http://www.blackhawk.com/product/Spo...,1146,1410.htm

    Level I retention holster2: http://www.desantisholster.com/store...HOLSTERS/Viper

    I use the Viper when I am hunting/out in the woods. Covers the pistol more than the Blackhawk, which is important to me in the Lowcountry.


    1 Not a advertisement or endorsement of this product.
    2 Not a advertisement or endorsement of this product.
    LOL, love the force option. I use it whenever possible.

    I like the blackhawk also but it got some bad press about safety. Seems that folks are shooting themselves in the foot on drawing from it so many instructors won't even allow them in class. I don't agree with that as any retention holster requires great familiarity with it. Accidents with firearams involving injuries are always the fault of the operator. Blaming the equipment is an excuse for poor habits.

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    Regular Member decklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gr8gunz View Post
    Thanks for the lecture but MA is not an option. I am a disabled vet confined to a wheelchair and have my Sarfariland strapped to the side and very visible. I am quite aware of my surroundings thank you but I'm quite sure that any physical resistence I could mount against a BG would be rather fruitless. I would suggest to you that most of us know what's best for our particular situation and make some inquiries before launching into a lengthy and unneeded speech of what you think we should do as opposed to what we are doing. BTW, in case you're interested, I am an NRA certified instructor and a CCW instructor for the state of Arizona.
    Take a moment to relax. Instead of reacting negatively to the info given just appreciate the fact that a stranger was doing what he thought was a good thing. Walking Wolf made a comment based off of your statements.

    I've looked at getting a level 3 but for the time being use level 2 for OC and various level 1's for CC. I was leaning towards a Blade Tech LVL3.
    "Loyalty above all else except honor. " -John Mahoney

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    Regular Member decklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gr8gunz View Post
    LOL, love the force option. I use it whenever possible.

    I like the blackhawk also but it got some bad press about safety. Seems that folks are shooting themselves in the foot on drawing from it so many instructors won't even allow them in class. I don't agree with that as any retention holster requires great familiarity with it. Accidents with firearams involving injuries are always the fault of the operator. Blaming the equipment is an excuse for poor habits.
    I absolutely agree with that! If the operator shoots themselves because they had their finger on the trigger then how is it the holster that caused it?
    "Loyalty above all else except honor. " -John Mahoney

    "A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have." -Gerald R. Ford

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gr8gunz View Post
    LOL, love the force option. I use it whenever possible.

    I like the blackhawk also but it got some bad press about safety. Seems that folks are shooting themselves in the foot on drawing from it so many instructors won't even allow them in class. I don't agree with that as any retention holster requires great familiarity with it. Accidents with firearams involving injuries are always the fault of the operator. Blaming the equipment is an excuse for poor habits.
    Yes, I have read where it is alleged that the Blackhawk retention system has caused some folks to to permit their finger to bend into the trigger guard area. Where by the previously straight finger was forced by the retention system to bend onto the trigger and thus initiate a weapon discharge.

    I can see how that could happen.

    I have not had the above occur to me. But!! I seem to have exceptionally firm control (the Force maybe?) over my trigger finger where as some other folks may need further practice to control their trigger finger.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  10. #10
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gr8gunz View Post
    Thanks for the lecture but MA is not an option. I am a disabled vet confined to a wheelchair and have my Sarfariland strapped to the side and very visible. I am quite aware of my surroundings thank you but I'm quite sure that any physical resistence I could mount against a BG would be rather fruitless. I would suggest to you that most of us know what's best for our particular situation and make some inquiries before launching into a lengthy and unneeded speech of what you think we should do as opposed to what we are doing. BTW, in case you're interested, I am an NRA certified instructor and a CCW instructor for the state of Arizona.
    It wasn't intended to be a lecture, just suggestions. I had no idea or knowledge that you were disabled veteran, thank you for your service. I taking it as a guess it is not easy to be disabled in a wheelchair. Just a suggestion again, but it might help to give some background when asking for advice, and try not to be so touchy when someone gives it. Especially when they are doing it blind to your circumstances.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Regular Member HearseGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Yes, I have read where it is alleged that the Blackhawk retention system has caused some folks to to permit their finger to bend into the trigger guard area. Where by the previously straight finger was forced by the retention system to bend onto the trigger and thus initiate a weapon discharge.

    I can see how that could happen.

    I have not had the above occur to me. But!! I seem to have exceptionally firm control (the Force maybe?) over my trigger finger where as some other folks may need further practice to control their trigger finger.
    For what its worth, I use a Blackhawk Lvl 2serpa for my Glock 17 every day carry. I love it. I do not understand how one could manage to draw and slam the trigger and get a negligent discharge. My finger ends up perfectly indexed on the frame. I, like most, however have had trigger discipline pounded into my head since I was old enough to understand what a gun was. So it is a non issue.

    I highly recommend the Blackhawk
    Last edited by HearseGuy; 03-19-2013 at 02:04 PM.
    Additional text for your reading pleasure...

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gr8gunz View Post
    Thanks for the lecture but MA is not an option. <snip>
    Why not? A MA instructor may be able to give you a few tips given your special circumstance. All he can say is that he can't help you, or his help will not meet your needs. Give it a look-see, you may have more options than you think there are.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Why not? A MA instructor may be able to give you a few tips given your special circumstance. All he can say is that he can't help you, or his help will not meet your needs. Give it a look-see, you may have more options than you think there are.
    I was also thinking a concealed bug might be a good option for somebody in a wheel chair or at least a knife to stab them with.

    I don't know the OP's disability so again I am suggesting blind, but here ya go...

    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 03-19-2013 at 12:53 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I was also thinking a concealed bug might be a good option for somebody in a wheel chair or at least a knife to stab them with.

    I don't know the OP's disability so again I am suggesting blind, but here ya go...

    WalkingWolf nailed it there! There are MA instructors who are knowledgeable about helping those who have various physical limitations. Contact different ones and see if there is not one in your area who can meet your needs.

    I also thank you, sir, for your service.
    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
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    Regular Member Gr8gunz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    It wasn't intended to be a lecture, just suggestions. I had no idea or knowledge that you were disabled veteran, thank you for your service. I taking it as a guess it is not easy to be disabled in a wheelchair. Just a suggestion again, but it might help to give some background when asking for advice, and try not to be so touchy when someone gives it. Especially when they are doing it blind to your circumstances.
    Herein lies the crux of the matter. I can be as touchy as I want to anyone who gives me advice I never asked for. It was your assumptions about me that led to your lecture, intentions notwithstanding. I stated what I require from a holster and which holster I ultimately chose to fulfill that requirement. My post did not necessitate a detailed explanation of my particular situation to the entire forum. Now, *IF* I had asked for advice as to how to accomodate my situation I suppose I would have been more forthcoming about my personal problems. Furthermore if I had asked for the kind of advice which you offered, I would have asked it in a more appropriate thread. Martial arts, mental awareness and hand to hand self defense is an entirely different conversation from holsters & Accessories. Myself being at risk of lecturing, may I suggest that you find out a few details before making suggestions you think might benefit someone else.

    Off topic comment: FEINSTEIN LOST!!!!!

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    Regular Member Gr8gunz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Why not? <snip>
    Because that is what I choose. I need not explain myself further on this matter. You have no idea as to the extent of my disability and I refuse to discuss the subject any further. This thread is supposed to be a discussion about holsters and accessories but has morphed into this silly banter about me and martial arts. Isn't there a martial arts forum you guys can go to and leave me out of it? I joined this forum to discuss OC and NOT my personal situation. I will not respond to anymore posts concerning that. I wish the forum moderator would jump in here and get it back on track.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gr8gunz View Post
    I am paranoid about retention especially when I OC which is 99% of the time. Nothing is more frightening to me than some cokehead grabbing my handgun from behind. To prevent that I carry a level III Safariland holster. Yes, it slows down the draw a bit but it's a good trade off for me. I don't have to be Doc Holiday out there. There are lots more level III holsters out there now since I bought mine but I haven't found one that does the job any better than the Safari. Anybody else out there use a level III?
    I never worry about cokeheads but its good that you are preparing/prepared to maintain your firearm ... heck, in an emergency anyone could act like a cokehead.

    Good thing you don't want to be like Doc Holiday ... he died at 36 yrs of age ... (natural causes)

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gr8gunz View Post
    Because that is what I choose. I need not explain myself further on this matter. You have no idea as to the extent of my disability and I refuse to discuss the subject any further. This thread is supposed to be a discussion about holsters and accessories but has morphed into this silly banter about me and martial arts. Isn't there a martial arts forum you guys can go to and leave me out of it? I joined this forum to discuss OC and NOT my personal situation. I will not respond to anymore posts concerning that. I wish the forum moderator would jump in here and get it back on track.
    Retention, considering the OP title is "Retention, retention, retention!!" is more than a Level III holster doing all of the retaining for you. No accessory will keep your pistol in your hand once you remove it from your holster. No holster will assist you in retaining your pistol in your hand.

    I'm not sure what you are asking at this point. I provided my recommendations on holsters, as requested. Welcome to OCDO and good luck.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Gr8gunz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HearseGuy View Post
    For what its worth, I use a Blackhawk Lvl 2serpa for my Glock 17 every day carry. I love it. I do not understand how one could manage to draw and slam the trigger and get a negligent discharge. My finger ends up perfectly indexed on the frame. I, like most, however have had trigger discipline pounded into my head since I was old enough to understand what a gun was. So it is a non issue.

    I highly recommend the Blackhawk
    I like that holster also and used it before I got the Safari which offers one step more. When I draw from the Blackhawk my trigger finger falls right where it should along side of the handgun. I did some experimenting with it and found that my finger could slip inside the trigger guard if I pressed the release by bending my finger and using my finger tip. I suspect this is the problem those ADs are experiencing. Point the finger straight down the side of the holster and depress the release with the flat part of the finger and it should fall where is belongs. Just a theory though.

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    Regular Member tomrkba's Avatar
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    I am a disabled vet confined to a wheelchair and have my Sarfariland strapped to the side and very visible.
    Why don't you carry the gun on your hip? The gun will go with you if you get knocked out of your chair or a bad guy dumps you out of it. A disabled vet (double leg amputee due to IED) in one gun class I attended carried his HK on his hip. He did several scenarios where he was dumped out of his chair by the bad guy. Other scenarios included drawing and shooting from the ground.
    Last edited by tomrkba; 03-20-2013 at 10:40 AM.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomrkba View Post
    Why don't you carry the gun on your hip? The gun will go with you if you get knocked out of your chair or a bad guy dumps you out of it.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Re: Retention, retention, retention!!

    The fear of a gun grab (whether real or imagined), as well as general the anti gun climate where I live, are what keep me from open carrying. Not bashing open carry (I'm not one of those concealed-only carriers who ridicules those who choose to open carry) but it just seems like it would be more of a headache than I'm willing to deal with.

    Sent from my Acer Iconia A200 tab using Tapatalk HD
    Last edited by tattedupboy; 03-20-2013 at 10:46 AM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Gr8gunz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Retention, considering the OP title is "Retention, retention, retention!!" is more than a Level III holster doing all of the retaining for you. No accessory will keep your pistol in your hand once you remove it from your holster. No holster will assist you in retaining your pistol in your hand.

    I'm not sure what you are asking at this point. I provided my recommendations on holsters, as requested. Welcome to OCDO and good luck.
    AAAAARGH!! You're not sure of what I am asking because I'm not asking anything, nor did I request recommendations! The "retention retention retention" title was to simply play up my personal opinion as to the importance of retention with regard to 'HOLSTERS AND EQUIPMENT" which is the title of the topic. It does not address retention once the pistol is out of the holster. I fail to understand why you think the title I used somehow implies that I am asking for advice about that. If you read the entire post (and not just the title) you will see that the only question I asked was, "Anybody out there use a level III?"

    Thanks for your replies and good luck to you as well.

  24. #24
    Regular Member sraacke's Avatar
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    I use either a level 1 or level 3 holster depending on how I'm dressing or where I'm going that day. My carry gun is a Ruger P89. Not alot of decent duty holster available for this model but I've found what works for me.
    For a "lower profile" carry I use a Bianchi Black Widow belt slide holster like seen here- http://www.opticsplanet.com/bianchi-...5-size-08.html . I've worn the gun in this holster and had people not even notice it. It's retention is a simple snap strap and thats all.
    For my "full on" pistol belt carry where I'm carrying all my stuff and don't care if noticed or not I have a Uncle Mikes Pro3 triple retention duty holster which rides on an Uncle Mikes pistol belt with a spare mag case which holds a spare mag and a led flashlight, my radio carrier for my portable ham radio, and my celphone case. The Pro3, as seen here- http://policelink.monster.com/produc...3-duty-holster , holds my P89 by way of a retention tightening screw, a top strap and a internal hook which grabs and holds the trigger guard until the gun is drawn.
    Of course, none of this built in retention or lack thereof takes away the responsibility I have to train in retention skills and I have. The holster is only a part of the plan. The fact is if anyone is going to carry a firearm their should take some retention training and learn how to defend their gun.
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  25. #25
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sraacke View Post
    [snip]
    Of course, none of this built in retention or lack thereof takes away the responsibility I have to train in retention skills and I have. The holster is only a part of the plan. The fact is if anyone is going to carry a firearm their should take some retention training and learn how to defend their gun.
    +1
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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