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Thread: Train Like You Fight - But Where & With Who?

  1. #1
    Regular Member anmut's Avatar
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    Train Like You Fight - But Where & With Who?

    While I was buying preference points for bear hunting for my son & I at Fleet Farm I noticed that they had some info on CC courses at the register. I wrote down the web address, www.equip2conceal.com, and when I got home I checked it out. I was interested in what they called a "Level 2" course for people to gain more skills at using a pistol in self defense.

    So according to their website, the Level 2 class is four hours long and you only need 100 rounds of ammo for range time. Seriously?! I'll put more down range in an afternoon than that. And what do you get for the $175?

    We will spend a short time reviewing not just safety, but grip, dominant eye, sight alignment, sight picture, trigger squeeze, breath control, and follow through. All of these fundamentals will be utilized to successfully complete the course.

    1. Pistol Shooting Fundamentals Review
    2. Opportunity to Develop Skills on a live firing range
    3. Take Home Score Sheet for each drill
    4. Four challenging drills with four caliber firearms
    5. Help the shooter master the methods of accurate shooting
    6. Enhance your enjoyment for shooting
    7. Confidence to continue building on skills with practice


    So it pretty much sounds like a big rip off to me, someone that considers himself a fair shooter already. But I'm still interested in expanding my knowledge and training - but where is this available in Wisconsin and is any of it worth the money?

  2. #2
    Regular Member Lephi's Avatar
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    Re: Train Like You Fight - But Where & With Who?

    It sounds like a basic marksmanship course.

    There are many more advanced classes available from trainers all over the country. I am a fan of Suarez International myself, but good training cost in both time and money but its worth it, you really have no idea how much you don't know till someone shows you.

  3. #3
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    IIRC, Equip 2 Conceal is out of FL. I've been saying since they showed their faces here they are a poor group to get "training" from as they are pretty basic, plus they don't know the WI law despite giving a WI specific course.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    IIRC, Equip 2 Conceal is out of FL. I've been saying since they showed their faces here they are a poor group to get "training" from as they are pretty basic, plus they don't know the WI law despite giving a WI specific course.
    Under Wisconsin Statutes SubSection 175.60(21)(d) a trainer is immune from good-faith error.

    (21) IMMUNITY. (d) A person providing a firearms training course in good faith is immune from liability arising from any act or omission related to the course if the course is one described in sub. (4) (a). http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/stat...utes/175/60/21

  5. #5
    Regular Member tomrkba's Avatar
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    Start with Tom Givens at Rangemaster. He does travel.

    Craig Douglas at shivworks.com offers his ECQC course. It is excellent. He travels too.

    Get on http://www.firearmstrainingandtactic...rums/forum.php and start reading the reports. Also get on m4carbine.net.
    Last edited by tomrkba; 03-20-2013 at 01:25 PM.

  6. #6
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Under Wisconsin Statutes SubSection 175.60(21)(d) a trainer is immune from good-faith error.
    E2C came to the forum and was promptly corrected from all his errors, but refused to listen. It is sad when us "dumb" people know more about the law than a trainer who refuses to learn it.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...sses-In-Wausau
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    E2C came to the forum and was promptly corrected from all his errors, but refused to listen. It is sad when us "dumb" people know more about the law than a trainer who refuses to learn it.
    I enjoy reading your Chapter 175 because it crystal clarity compared to the mor-ass here. I also read your linked thread but saw no particular error in law, only personal disagreement.

    What was the error in law? What did "out of Florida" mean when E2C apparently lived in Wausau? Residency requirementa are a common legal requirement all over the US, is there one in Wisconsin?

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    I've heard many comments about the E2C company/classes, none of them good.
    In fact, people who have paid for their 'instruction', then taken the WCI class, say that the WCI information is far superior, more in-depth, more useful, and true.
    The E2C people teach FL laws, which in some cases are completely opposite of WI law. I suspect they are the source of much of the "you can't carry openly" myth.

    I am very disappointed that FF chose to contract with E2C, rather than a WI organization such as WI Carry (offering free classes with WI information that's true), or allowing local instructors to advertise & conduct classes in their stores, or even staying neutral & not taking ads from anyone.

  9. #9
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll
    What was the error in law?
    Where the E2C person claimed that his training would definitely meet WI requirements, even though those hadn't been set by the DOJ yet. (And those were changed very shortly after being published, because they didn't meet the law.)

    What did "out of Florida" mean when E2C apparently lived in Wausau?
    From his first post 25AUG11 7:28PM:
    Equip2ConcealInst
    Regular Member
    Join Date Aug 2011
    Location Florida

    And the information hasn't changed since then.
    The company is based in FL.

  10. #10
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    Trainer immunity must be removed.

    Wisconsin Statutes SubSection 175.60(21)(21) IMMUNITY. (d) A person providing a firearms training course in good faith is immune from liability arising from any act or omission related to the course if the course is one described in sub. (4) (a). http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/stat...utes/175/60/21
    Trainer immunity should be removed if fails to protect the community from outside competition.

  11. #11
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    A lot depends on ones skill level if the instruction is worth the costs. A good instructor can be a big help to people who need it.

    Personally I talk with my clients and see where their skill level is and develop training to improve on that.

    Some one who is a good firearms handler and shooter shouldn't need a a basic course. But there are people who could very well benifit from learning proper firearms skills even thou they have been shooting a while.

    If any one is interested in advanced firearms training feel free to PM me and we can converse on what you need to improve your skill levels.

    With 33 plus years of firearms and tactical training, instuctor certificates in rifle,patrol rifle,police shotgun and hangun.

    I am able to offer personalized training from very basic to advanced skills.
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

    Any and all spelling errors are just to give the spelling Nazis something to do

  12. #12
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Who in Wisconsin fights with handguns?

    What is the duration of the "typical" handgun "employment", what distance(s) are these employments conducted, what is the average age of the citizen who employs his handgun?

    Where does the typical handgun employment take place?

    When does the typical handgun employment take place?

    Why does the typical handgun employment take place?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  13. #13
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    E2C came to the forum and was promptly corrected from all his errors, but refused to listen. It is sad when us "dumb" people know more about the law than a trainer who refuses to learn it.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...sses-In-Wausau
    The biggest thing I saw in that thread was people claiming that the $99 spent on that course was a waste of money and that free internet advice was better than paying for a formal class. I didn't see any "errors" posted by E2C.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Residency requirementa are a common legal requirement all over the US, is there one in Wisconsin?
    There is no requirement that an instructor be a WI resident or that the class even take place in WI. The class must simply be a firearm safety or training class. There is not even a requirement to have any mention of WI law as part of the Curriculum.
    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Where the E2C person claimed that his training would definitely meet WI requirements, even though those hadn't been set by the DOJ yet. (And those were changed very shortly after being published, because they didn't meet the law.) .
    Being a NRA Certified Instructor, ANY Firearms Safety OR Training Course he provides currently meets the Statutory Requirement. The 4 hour minimum never stuck. * *The DOJ's dream list would change this, but that is to be seen.

  14. #14
    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Yellow Cat

    The Yellow Cat will be returning to Southeastern Wisconsin for a family reunion over the last weekend in June. Class times and schedules will be posted as the time approaches, but at a minimum I will be offering the Utah CFP course. Any former students may attend as a refresher for free.

    Yellow Cat Out -

    www.yellowcatpersonaldefense.com
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anmut View Post
    While I was buying preference points for bear hunting for my son & I at Fleet Farm I noticed that they had some info on CC courses at the register. I wrote down the web address, www.equip2conceal.com, and when I got home I checked it out. I was interested in what they called a "Level 2" course for people to gain more skills at using a pistol in self defense.

    So according to their website, the Level 2 class is four hours long and you only need 100 rounds of ammo for range time. Seriously?! I'll put more down range in an afternoon than that. And what do you get for the $175?

    We will spend a short time reviewing not just safety, but grip, dominant eye, sight alignment, sight picture, trigger squeeze, breath control, and follow through. All of these fundamentals will be utilized to successfully complete the course.

    1. Pistol Shooting Fundamentals Review
    2. Opportunity to Develop Skills on a live firing range
    3. Take Home Score Sheet for each drill
    4. Four challenging drills with four caliber firearms
    5. Help the shooter master the methods of accurate shooting
    6. Enhance your enjoyment for shooting
    7. Confidence to continue building on skills with practice


    So it pretty much sounds like a big rip off to me, someone that considers himself a fair shooter already. But I'm still interested in expanding my knowledge and training - but where is this available in Wisconsin and is any of it worth the money?
    I have a college degree so a remedial reading course for me isn't worth the money.

    To someone with problems reading a book, a remedial reading class probably has value.

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