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Thread: Why modern soldiers are more susceptible to suicide, 'The self-esteem generation'

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    Why modern soldiers are more susceptible to suicide, 'The self-esteem generation'

    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...o-suicide?lite
    “This group is the self-esteem generation. My worry is they have not dealt with enough challenges, enough disappointments in life for many of them to build the kind of resilience that is foundational when you go to war,” added Rudd. “This has led to many of us to having thin skin. That doesn’t bode well when you go to war.”
    My Army contemporaries suffered 13/100,000 suicides. I don't know what the brown-water Navy suffered, but I imagine much less. Of course we did suffer such as Lt. Kerry.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Balderdash!

    It isn't their fault, its the governments fault for sending them off to kill people and be killed in a political war!
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    War is hell, then and now, 13/100K vs 23/100K suicides.

    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    It isn't their fault, its the governments fault for sending them off to kill people and be killed in a political war!
    My war was "a political war", but with only 13/100,000 Army suicides compared to about twice that currently. That is the point, war is the same hell then and now but the suicide rate changes. So did the cultural/educaiton.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Balderdash!

    It isn't their fault, its the governments fault for sending them off to kill people and be killed in a political war!
    I don't think that's the point, though I agree that we shouldn't be selling our young people as mercenaries.

    I see the lack of discipline, coupled with an attempt to shelter children from some of life's hard lessons via prescription drugs, may result in young adults with an underdeveloped ability to handle stress.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    I don't think that's the point, though I agree that we shouldn't be selling our young people as mercenaries.

    I see the lack of discipline, coupled with an attempt to shelter children from some of life's hard lessons via prescription drugs, may result in young adults with an underdeveloped ability to handle stress.

    Really, lack of discipline, and a sheltered life.

    Things must be getting better, WWII vets committed suicide at a higher rate:

    “Some little incident will trigger a recollection about some event in combat,” he said, “like a DVD playing back in my head. I just let it play until it’s over. I’ve gotten used to it.”
    Norwood said he’s never contemplated suicide, but that the flashbacks have worsened over the years, especially since he retired. https://www.baycitizen.org/news/vete...ong-wwii-vets/
    WWII was a war of necessity. We are lucky we don't have even higher rates of suicide with vets returning from Afghanistan, and Iraq, considering the former was a waste of time, and the latter was unjustified, immoral, and illegal, IMO.

    From what I hear, individuals who are sent off to war, are at a pretty high risk of coming back with PTSD. Apparently, watching human beings being murdered, and blown to pieces in front of you has a lasting psychological impact.

    Moral of the story: Don't send your kids off to war unless it is absolutely necessary. Hell, going into Afghanistan wasn't even necessary.

    Another link:

    Is the suicide rate among veterans any higher now than it has been in the past? It's hard to say, because there aren't many reliable data from before the 1960s. But what evidence we have suggests that those who were recently discharged from service in the Vietnam War were more likely to kill themselves than veterans of today's campaigns. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...than_ever.html


    Apparently there isn't much data prior to 1960. So, we don't know how many vets "back then" committed suicide after coming back. It appears the current generation is equipped with a psychological wherewithal that Vietnam era vets didn't have.

    Oh dear, am I pi**ing on past generations crude, failed attempt at casting my generation--9-11 generation--as psychologically flawed.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 03-21-2013 at 01:37 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...o-suicide?lite
    My Army contemporaries suffered 13/100,000 suicides. I don't know what the brown-water Navy suffered, but I imagine much less. Of course we did suffer such as Lt. Kerry.
    I don't know what generation you're part of, but:

    A 2004 study by a team led by researchers from the National Center for Environmental Health looked at numbers going back to 1965, and found that the suicide rate among Vietnam veterans in the five years after they were discharged was 34.5 per 100,000. For ex-military personnel who served after that war ended, the equivalent number was just 20.1. A few years later, epidemiologists for the Department of Veterans Affairs looked at U.S. veterans who'd returned from Iraq or Afghanistan, and found that 21.9 per 100,000 veterans committed suicide—not much higher than the control group in the previous study. It's possible that rates will go up in years to come, as more soldiers are discharged after multiple deployments. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...than_ever.html
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Why modern soldiers are more susceptible to suicide, 'The self-esteem generatio

    I recommend "On Killing" by Lt. Colonel Dave Grossman USA (Ret). His Killology Institute is pioneering in the field and study of killing.

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    Is that a high rate?

    http://www.afsp.org/files/College_Film//factsheets.pdf

    18/100,000 for males noted

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    Why modern soldiers are more susceptible to suicide, 'The self-esteem generat...

    Blame whoever you like, but some people aren't built for that kind of stress. And once some are conditioned for something, and accustomed to the rush of constant stress, and return to a meaningless life, what do you expect.

    Our daily lives are essentially without higher meaning, and very dull. For god's sake, Snookie and the Kardashians substitute for real life. Why would someone, whose daily existence last month was life-or-death everyday, want to deal with people who are so caught up in Facebook and what to wear to the grocery that they don't have their own life?

    And we expect these young men and women to just deal with it. Shame on us. I don't have the answers, but the problem seems to be in front of us.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    ...Things must be getting better, WWII vets committed suicide at a higher rate...
    Are we talking veterans or active-duty personnel?
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Even if it is 100 per 100,000, there are 99,900 who do not.....proper perspective.

    Liberals focusing on those 100 tragedies permits liberals to frame and control this emotional issue upon which further infringements of the liberties of the remaining 99,900 is viewed as acceptable to help the 100.....who are no longer here to exercise their liberties.

    Also, liberals argue that if there is 100 then the remaining 99,900 must be held suspect because "we" (liberals speaking for me) can not know who is the 100 out of the 100,000 that will succumb to their demons.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    I don't think that's the point, though I agree that we shouldn't be selling our young people as mercenaries.

    I see the lack of discipline, coupled with an attempt to shelter children from some of life's hard lessons via prescription drugs, may result in young adults with an underdeveloped ability to handle stress.
    Instead of blaming the government and war they blame the people and their parents.....

    I call bull.

    My cousin/close friend may have pulled the trigger that sent the bullet through his brain, it was the government that broke him and killed him. We didn't have a "soft" easy life growing up, at times it was quite brutal......so anybody who says this is the reason can go (self edited for content) themselves.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Instead of blaming the government and war they blame the people and their parents.....

    I call bull.

    My cousin/close friend may have pulled the trigger that sent the bullet through his brain, it was the government that broke him and killed him. We didn't have a "soft" easy life growing up, at times it was quite brutal......so anybody who says this is the reason can go (self edited for content) themselves.
    Not much I can say re your personal experience other than I extend my condolences to you and yours.

    Please bear in mind that this issue is not about those who have passed, but those who remain, the 99,900 if you will.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Once again, the basic premise is that it is a high rate ... but is it?

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Once again, the basic premise is that it is a high rate ... but is it?
    Has anybody tried to compare military suicide rates to the rates of the rest of US society? Maybe they are not that high?

    I'll dig for some numbers, but I do remember Japan has a much higher rate than the US, and they have a very small military.

    Overall suicide rate for US 2009 was 12 per 100,000 people. per Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_suicide_rate
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 03-22-2013 at 12:10 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Suicide by any method is 12.5 per 100K across the united states population as a whole.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    So what I gather from the data is that people who are going to commit suicide, are going to commit suicide. Just some use different reasons for doing that, but if denied one reason they probably would find another. IMO
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Exactly, in Japan ownership of handguns and rifles is virtually impossible for the average citizen and shotguns maybe if they're willing to put up alot of money and time into getting the license.

    and the suicide rate among their general population is almost 19 per 100,000 people. Much higher then ours... gun don't equal suicide, or homicide, but hey I'm preaching to the choir here....
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider116 View Post
    I recommend "On Killing" by Lt. Colonel Dave Grossman USA (Ret). His Killology Institute is pioneering in the field and study of killing.
    A fantastic book and should be required reading for any one who carries a firearm. If you liked that one you should check out his other book On Combat
    I am also a fan of Gavin de Becker's The Gift of Fear
    "Loyalty above all else except honor. " -John Mahoney

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    I've read Grossman's stuff, but approach him with skepticism, He makes alot of claims not borne out by evidence or makes connections that are weak at best.

    Like he claims Military and police training didn't include sillehuette targets until the 1960s, even though we can find evidence of such targets being used during WW2 marksmanship and by the Texas Rangers in the 1930s. Made the claim that violent crime was increasing throughout the late 1990s, also statistically incorrect. and in a debate with a New Jersey police officer (now a New Hampshire officer) named Tom Aveni, he made some statements that imply opposition to the 2nd amendment, he's also called for censorship of material. He's much like many well educated people... he thinks he knows best and that his ideas alone should be the basis for government action...

    Anyway the corrospondence debate between Aveni and Grossman here Is pretty telling....
    Last edited by EMNofSeattle; 03-22-2013 at 02:24 PM.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Instead of blaming the government and war they blame the people and their parents.....

    I call bull.
    Why? There hasn't been a draft since the Vietnam police action. If a soldier has gone to war in the last 30 years, then it is by choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    My cousin/close friend may have pulled the trigger that sent the bullet through his brain, it was the government that broke him and killed him. We didn't have a "soft" easy life growing up, at times it was quite brutal......so anybody who says this is the reason can go (self edited for content) themselves.
    I can't speak to your particular situation and I certainly didn't mean to presume that I knew exactly why people kill themselves. I was making a suggestion based on observation.

    Normally you are a pretty even keeled individual. It appears I've offended you. I do apologize.

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    Why modern soldiers are more susceptible to suicide, 'The self-esteem generatio

    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    I've read Grossman's stuff, but approach him with skepticism, He makes alot of claims not borne out by evidence or makes connections that are weak at best.

    Like he claims Military and police training didn't include sillehuette targets until the 1960s, even though we can find evidence of such targets being used during WW2 marksmanship and by the Texas Rangers in the 1930s. Made the claim that violent crime was increasing throughout the late 1990s, also statistically incorrect. and in a debate with a New Jersey police officer (now a New Hampshire officer) named Tom Aveni, he made some statements that imply opposition to the 2nd amendment, he's also called for censorship of material. He's much like many well educated people... he thinks he knows best and that his ideas alone should be the basis for government action...

    Anyway the corrospondence debate between Aveni and Grossman here Is pretty telling....
    Grossman's strong points are conditioning one's mind for killing. I believe it is important to do so if you are carrying a firearm. That does not mean that one looks for conflict but a gun does no good if the heart is hesitant in pulling the trigger. The criminal element is already conditioned to do violence on its behalf.

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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider116 View Post
    Grossman's strong points are conditioning one's mind for killing. I believe it is important to do so if you are carrying a firearm. That does not mean that one looks for conflict but a gun does no good if the heart is hesitant in pulling the trigger. The criminal element is already conditioned to do violence on its behalf.
    I would never "condition my mind for killing"! That is not why I carry a gun. I carry a gun to protect me and mine by stopping threats. I fully recognize that that may well mean killing the threat, but killing is not the mindset I ever want to have.

    Anyone who advocates "conditioning one's mind for killing" is automatically suspect to me--and probably to any court trying him for what he claims to be self-defense. "Your Honor, the defendant went to great efforts to 'condition his mind for killing' prior to the shooting on _______. Clearly, by not taking one of the myriad of other options available to him, choosing instead to do that which he conditioned himself to do, he showed that his intent was to kill, not just to protect himself..."

    It wouldn't matter if that were entirely BS (I don't think it is; there is a grain of truth in it), I wouldn't want that argument being used against me. Would you?

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Not much I can say re your personal experience other than I extend my condolences to you and yours.

    Please bear in mind that this issue is not about those who have passed, but those who remain, the 99,900 if you will.
    Thank you. I feel great sympathy for those who remain, and their families, the only solution I can think of is to stop it from happening again.


    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    Why? There hasn't been a draft since the Vietnam police action. If a soldier has gone to war in the last 30 years, then it is by choice.
    Yes and no, if this is true make it a truly voluntary military. Also we all know that young men from late teens to early 20's make the best well thought out decisions, right?



    I can't speak to your particular situation and I certainly didn't mean to presume that I knew exactly why people kill themselves. I was making a suggestion based on observation.

    Normally you are a pretty even keeled individual. It appears I've offended you. I do apologize.
    No you didn't offend me the Idea put forth by the OP that somehow it's the soldiers fault or faulty upbringing is offensive to me. I just feel strongly about this, I know I'll loose many of my military minded friends over these ideas, but it is the military's fault it is our governments fault. They are not fighting for our freedom as they are told. They are then brought home as damaged goods and receive a lackadaisical ho hum treatment from the government they served. They are put up on pedestals, often and told what a good thing they did, when many realize they didn't do anything "good". War should be a measure of last resort, the government using our brothers and sisters as fodder for Keynesian economics and political power need to be the ones to go to the battle front.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    So what I gather from the data is that people who are going to commit suicide, are going to commit suicide. Just some use different reasons for doing that, but if denied one reason they probably would find another. IMO
    True. A tool is a tool is a tool, and that is all a firearm is.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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