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Thread: Recent FBI Data Reveals America Is Buying Guns More Than Ever Since Newtown.

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    Recent FBI Data Reveals America Is Buying Guns More Than Ever Since Newtown.

    http://www.theatlanticwire.com/natio...ta-2013/63364/

    Philip Bump Mar 20, 2013

    Since the school shooting massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary, America has gone on an unprecedented gun-buying binge, the numbers of which are staggering. Nine of the ten days with the most daily requested FBI background checks in history have occurred since Newtown ó including the day of the tragedy itself. And the home of the tragedy has seen gun permits more than double.

    Newtown in recent years has issued about 130 gun permits annually. Police say the town received 79 permit applications in the three months since the Dec. 14 massacre, well over double the normal pace.

    Gun applicants traditionally involved hunters, target shooters and business owners, but now police are seeing a wider variety of applicants, [Robert Berkins, records manager for Newtown police] said. Some said they never thought about getting a gun but heard their right to have one is going to be taken away, he said.

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    Wait a minute. The FBI is the one doing the backround checking? Since when? And, why?

    Why is it necessary for the FBI to hunt through databases for disqualifying information?

    Oh, I will now never accept that this data isn't being stored in a defacto federal registry. The FBI never lets go of data once aquired. For example, they hold onto all fingerprint data until the owner of the fingers is 99 years old, whether he did anything wrong or not.

    OK. Now, I'm certain.

    And, I'm ready for the next government lie.
    Last edited by Citizen; 03-21-2013 at 11:22 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Recent FBI Data Reveals America Is Buying Guns More Than Ever Since Newtown.

    AFIK, NICS has always been an FBI operation.

    The data that is sent cannot possibly be used to register handguns. No information about the firearm is sent to do the check. The device that could become a registration system is the 4473, not the actual background check.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Wait a minute. The FBI is the one doing the backround checking? Since when? And, why?
    Since always.

    The National Instant Criminal Background Check System, or NICS ... Mandated by the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993 and launched by the FBI on November 30, 1998, NICS is used by Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs) to instantly determine whether a prospective buyer is eligible to buy firearms or explosives. Before ringing up the sale, cashiers call in a check to the FBI or to other designated agencies [I believe state agencies] to ensure that each customer does not have a criminal record or isnít otherwise ineligible to make a purchase. https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    AFIK, NICS has always been an FBI operation.

    The data that is sent cannot possibly be used to register handguns. No information about the firearm is sent to do the check. The device that could become a registration system is the 4473, not the actual background check.


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    Ummm. Guns don't kill people; people do. You don't have to register the guns; just the gun owners.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Since always.
    Thanks. Its pretty obvious, anyway. I should have realized.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Recent FBI Data Reveals America Is Buying Guns More Than Ever Since Newtown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Ummm. Guns don't kill people; people do. You don't have to register the guns; just the gun owners.
    That is not what folks are complaining about when the complain about registration systems. However, let's go with that. Even then, the system is only registering purchasers (almost everyone), not owners, a subtle distinction, but an important one. That one has purchased a gun does not mean that he owns one, just that he, at one time, owned one.

    My effort was only to dispel the widely held misunderstanding that the NICS system keeps any information about guns that have been purchased. It doesn't and never has.


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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    That is not what folks are complaining about when the complain about registration systems. However, let's go with that. Even then, the system is only registering purchasers (almost everyone), not owners, a subtle distinction, but an important one. That one has purchased a gun does not mean that he owns one, just that he, at one time, owned one.

    My effort was only to dispel the widely held misunderstanding that the NICS system keeps any information about guns that have been purchased. It doesn't and never has.


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    Should a government become corrupt enough to try a gun grab I doubt they will care much about that slight difference. The fact that you even applied to buy a weapon is reason enough for them to believe that you still have one and illegally raid your house. After all, if they hit the point of confiscation I highly doubt they "really" care about raiding a few peoples homes who no longer have weapons but applied for them in the past.
    Last edited by Aknazer; 03-21-2013 at 10:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    Should a government become corrupt enough to try a gun grab I doubt they will care much about that slight difference. The fact that you even applied to buy a weapon is reason enough for them to believe that you still have one and illegally raid your house. After all, if they hit the point of confiscation I highly doubt they "really" care about raiding a few peoples homes who no longer have weapons but applied for them in the past.
    I have a solution (not necessarily perfect, subject to suggestions/change since I am just spit-balling here):

    1.) Require all schools to teach firearm familiarization and safety.
    2.) Require all state DOL's to issue a Firearms ID (which is a picture ID) to all eligible citizens when they receive a drivers license, or non-driving ID if also age 16 or older, whether they request the Firearms ID or not.
    2a.)Allow individuals age 18 or older to request only a Firearms ID if they have no other state issued ID, and in that case there can be no charge for the ID process.
    3.) Require a Firearms ID for ALL Firearm sales, including FTF. The seller must confirm age eligibility as well since the ID can be issued before the individual is of legal age to purchase a firearm.
    4.) Require ineligibility to be specifically ordered by a judge or military court, rather than be assumed based on the nature of the judgement. With state/federal guidelines of when it is to be used of course.
    4a.) Allow judgements of ineligibility to be appealed in limited circumstances, such as after a conviction being overturned, or after a time limit for certain kinds of judgements.
    5.) Make sure there is a proper system for adjudicating mental health issues so that kind of judgement has a standard process to be followed.
    6.) Require any judgement of ineligibility to be submitted immediately to a central database (with a LOT of information to uniquely identify the individual) that is shared by all state DOL's.
    7.) Require courts to destroy the Firearms ID of any individual who that court has declared ineligible.
    8.) Require that all state DOL's not issue a Firearms ID to ineligible individuals, as indicated by the central database.
    9.) Require individuals to report a lost or stolen Firearms ID within 30 days.
    10.) Make it illegal to ask that an individual present their Firearm ID except for firearm related activities or by order of a LEO if the individual is in possession of a firearm and RAS/PC has been established and the State the person is in requires them to have their Firearms ID while carrying a firearm. So someone applying to be an armed security guard could be required to show it, but someone applying to be a checker at Wal-Mart could not even be asked.
    11.) Once the system is fully active and shown to be functioning correctly it would replace NICS checks.
    ... Probably a few other things I missed.

    What is great about this is it closes the "gun show loophole", but in a way that doesn't compromise gun owners in any way. Since everyone who is eligible, which is almost everyone, will have a Firearms ID there will be no stigma to having one and having one will in no way indicate gun ownership. Therefore it doesn't create a defacto registration of any kind so it wouldn't help with a gun grab. And since it can almost never be "required" to be used by anyone it doesn't create a stigma for those people who don't have one.

    The reason it is physically separate from a drivers license or other state issued ID, rather than a mark on such ID, is because otherwise those with the ineligible indicator may face undo discrimination in other activities where they have to present ID.

    The only affect this would have on the separate states in regards to firearms purchases is that it would replace drivers licenses in the ID part of FFL transactions, and replace the state issued Firearms ID in any states that have them. States would be able to use them for certain other firearms related activities too though, such as putting a CPL indicator or retired LEO indicator on them.
    Last edited by arentol; 03-22-2013 at 12:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    Should a government become corrupt enough to try a gun grab I doubt they will care much about that slight difference. The fact that you even applied to buy a weapon is reason enough for them to believe that you still have one and illegally raid your house. After all, if they hit the point of confiscation I highly doubt they "really" care about raiding a few peoples homes who no longer have weapons but applied for them in the past.
    Again, cuz it's getting lost in all this fluff: The point I am making is that the NICS system cannot be used for gun registration because no information about the gun is sent with the request for the check. That is the myth that I am busting. The rest is just a feeble attempt to distract from that point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arentol View Post
    I have a solution (not necessarily perfect, subject to suggestions/change since I am just spit-balling here):

    <snip>
    Your "solution" is based on a false premise. Your "solution" is is anti-liberty and thus anti-citizen.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Again, cuz it's getting lost in all this fluff: The point I am making is that the NICS system cannot be used for gun registration because no information about the gun is sent with the request for the check. That is the myth that I am busting. The rest is just a feeble attempt to distract from that point.
    Supplying specific firearm identifying data during a BC is not required to meet the definition of registering a firearm to a citizen in my view. Registration of firearms is viewed in the light of a specific type of firearm purchased and not that Citizen Kane now owns a firearm. The "state" has no business knowing whether or not I own a firearm, of any type. The criminal BC must not be associated with a firearm.

    The "state" could surmise that a phone call from the local gun shop, pawn shop, or big box sporting goods store would imply a firearms transaction but the most that could be definitively claimed, in a court of law, is that a firm that sells "weapons" initiated a BC. This is reasonable in my view. A citizen was checked to ensure that they are eligible to possess a weapon. Yes, it would suck to do a BC for a good hunting blade, or for a good hunting bow, but I am not required to have a BC performed to purchase a high quality K-Bar fighting knife, or Parker Python hunting bow.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Recent FBI Data Reveals America Is Buying Guns More Than Ever Since Newtown.

    Again, the myth is that the NICS system is being used to tie guns to people. That is all that I am refuting. No information about the firearm is sent with the NICS check.

    Folks can keep trying to refute that point, but they are only refuting stuff I did not say and prompting me to repeat the above. That's OK, I guess, cuz there're a lot of folks out there with that precise misimpression. And every time I repeat myself, more people can learn the truth--even through the fog that folks keep blowing over my simple point.


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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Again, cuz it's getting lost in all this fluff: The point I am making is that the NICS system cannot be used for gun registration because no information about the gun is sent with the request for the check. That is the myth that I am busting. The rest is just a feeble attempt to distract from that point.
    Oh I know the point that you normally make and I agree with it (that a NICS check can't tie a specific gun to a person), but in the post that I quoted you were going with Citizen's idea of gun owner registration and saying that it couldn't be a gun owner registration (instead of a true gun registration) because they would have no way to know if the person still owns the gun; simply that they had applied to own a gun at some point. From here my point was that if a government hit the point that it was willing to violate its citizens rights and do gun confiscation then the list of those who had applied to own a gun would still likely be good enough for the gov to raid peoples homes regardless of if the people "actually" still owned weapons or not.

    So 100% background checks can easily be used as a backdoor list of "probable" gun owners which is good enough for government work since those that evade the 100% background check also likely wouldn't have registered their guns if that was a requirement.

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    One more time, I am not discussing "gun owner registration." This is an idea that someone else has introduced.

    So, I will make my point once again. The NICS system cannot be used to register guns (commonly referred to simply as "registration," with that unadorned term commonly accepted only as meaning registering guns). No information about the gun is sent with the background check information to the FBI.

    I want to make sure that none of the posts responding to mine can in any way be mistaken as refuting this point. I have too many customers coming up to me complaining about NICS being a registration system (clearly meaning "gun registration system") to let anything slide by that in any way looks like it is refuting a post I make that busts the myth that NICS has anything to do with gun registration, more commonly called just "registration."

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Your "solution" is based on a false premise. Your "solution" is is anti-liberty and thus anti-citizen.
    What is false about the premise that representatives in multiple states and the federal government are trying to force NICS checks for all firearms sales? That is a 100% given fact that can not be disputed, and is my premise. My premise is also that NiCS checks create a defacto list of likely gun owners that could be illegally abused now and could be "legally" abused in the future.

    And my solution is not anti-liberty. Liberty is the power to do as one pleases. Constructively though Liberty can not be absolute, as this is also known as anarchy. When it comes to firearms there is valid public interest that overrides unfettered liberty. This public interest is much stronger in relation to deadly weapons than to something innocuous, like charm bracelets, so there is SOME limit on deadly weapon ownership and usage while there is effectively none on charm bracelets (Barring them having deadly weapons as charms).

    So given that, what aspect of my idea is MORE anti-liberty than the barrel of the gun we are starting down right now that is forced NICS checks for FTF gun sales and defacto gun owner/enthusiast registration? My system would remove NICS checks from ALL sales by providing a method for all non-ineligible citizens to readily identify themselves as able to purchase and own firearms. Some states actually already have a process for this except it requires one to effectively register oneself with the state as a gun owner to take advantage of. Mine just takes this further by automatically registering EVERYONE as a potential lawful gun owner automatically which has the benefit of providing the state with no information regarding who has ever actually purchased a gun or wants to.

    Now here is the real trick to my idea... The problem with the 2nd amendment is that most people don't have a concrete example of the 2nd amendment that they can lose. With nothing to lose they have nothing to fight to keep. By giving them a card with their picture that affirms their 2nd amendment rights most people, whether they have or wish to have a firearm or not, will fight tooth and nail to keep that card and keep that right, and even to not have it curtailed in petty ways like with 7 round magazine limits.

    Personally I would prefer the state butt-out entirely, but they won't. So if they are going to have their noses in the process then gun owners should come up with a system that provides the most benefit for the least harm, and that makes it much harder to justify a/o pass further curtailments of our rights. I have read hundreds of posts on general news aggregators in the last couple weeks where people complain the gun lobby is creating its own issues by refusing to compromise and refusing to list to, or acknowledge, there may be a problem to solve. I can't argue with that perception from their point of view, even though I don't think that is what is actually happening. So what I am saying is that since we are being seen as ignoring the issue lets turn it around and hit the anti's with a "solution" that looks good to the general public so the anti's can't turn it down, but which really furthers our goals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    One more time, I am not discussing "gun owner registration." This is an idea that someone else has introduced.

    So, I will make my point once again. The NICS system cannot be used to register guns (commonly referred to simply as "registration," with that unadorned term commonly accepted only as meaning registering guns). No information about the gun is sent with the background check information to the FBI.

    I want to make sure that none of the posts responding to mine can in any way be mistaken as refuting this point. I have too many customers coming up to me complaining about NICS being a registration system (clearly meaning "gun registration system") to let anything slide by that in any way looks like it is refuting a post I make that busts the myth that NICS has anything to do with gun registration, more commonly called just "registration."
    I agree that it is not gun registration.

    But that doesn't mean it isn't registration. Unless you work the back end of the NICS system then you have no idea how it really works and, most importantly, what is being recorded. What you and I do know is what information is sent in to the system, and that if that information were recorded it would be a defacto gun owner registration system, and you can't validly deny that.

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    OK, so I'm going to do it again.

    The NICS system cannot by used for gun registration, commonly referred to simply as "registration," despite the common mythology to the contrary.

    No gun information is sent with the personal identifying information to the FBI.

    I will keep repeating this message every time someone makes it appear that they are refuting this irrefutable fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arentol View Post
    .........Constructively though Liberty can not be absolute, as this is also known as anarchy......

    And what's wrong with that? Call it anarchy, or call it True Liberty, take your pick. I'll have it over a government any old day of the week.

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    Recent FBI Data Reveals America Is Buying Guns More Than Ever Since Newtown.

    A vacuum of government will never exist. Some tyrant will fill it. To avoid tyranny, you need a minimal government that protects the rights of the People. Our Framers came as close as anyone ever has. The only thing that could bring down their grand architecture was apathy and greed.

    Ben Franklin said that we had "A Republic, ma'am--as long as you can keep it."

    Our best shot is restoring the Republic. If you would tear it down, let me remind you that almost every revolution in the history of mankind has resulted in an increase in tyranny. The American Revolution was an exception to the rule if you even think of it as a revolution. We were actually the freest people ever on the face of the Earth who were not revolting so much as throwing off those who came from essentially outside to try to impose tyranny.

    If you strive for anarchy, you will get tyranny. While we may have been moving towards tyranny, what you now see is nothing compared to the tyranny to come!


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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    OK, so I'm going to do it again.

    The NICS system cannot by used for gun registration, commonly referred to simply as "registration," despite the common mythology to the contrary.

    No gun information is sent with the personal identifying information to the FBI.

    I will keep repeating this message every time someone makes it appear that they are refuting this irrefutable fact.
    Some info is sent. The type is sent, whether its a handgun or long gun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Username unknown View Post
    Some info is sent. The type is sent, whether its a handgun or long gun.


    A new most useless post in the history of OCDO. Way to make an entrance. I notice that you are not even competent enough to give yourself a name!

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post


    A new most useless post in the history of OCDO. Way to make an entrance. I notice that you are not even competent enough to give yourself a name!
    Your ad hominem attack does not change the fact that info is sent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    One more time, I am not discussing "gun owner registration." This is an idea that someone else has introduced.

    SNIP
    Except that with the bolded part below you still went with this idea for your comment and is what I was commenting on.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    That is not what folks are complaining about when the complain about registration systems. However, let's go with that. Even then, the system is only registering purchasers (almost everyone), not owners, a subtle distinction, but an important one. That one has purchased a gun does not mean that he owns one, just that he, at one time, owned one.

    My effort was only to dispel the widely held misunderstanding that the NICS system keeps any information about guns that have been purchased. It doesn't and never has.


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    And for others to know what all is going on here, the bolded below is what Eye was responding to (with my comments being about the above quote).

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Ummm. Guns don't kill people; people do. You don't have to register the guns; just the gun owners.

    So while yes, the NICS system doesn't let them register the guns, a 100% background check would still give them a pretty accurate list of just WHO owns a gun and pretty effectively sidestep the law on not registering guns. And a corrupt government looking to take defensive tools away from its citizenry isn't going to care about a "subtle difference" as you put it. Hell, I would bet that when planning things like arrests that if they had easy access to a list like this then they would use that info to justify even more SWAT raids because the person has a "high probability" of owning a weapon due to attempting to purchase one before. So it isn't like it has to be a 100% list (since no list will be 100%) or even a gun grab for the info to be of use to them. I'm also sure that they can use this information in other ways as well (like "terrorist" lists).

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    Wow, because in ONE post, for the sake of argument, I did a let's-assume-for-a-second, you took that for MY position??? Yeah, that's honest.

    I'll just keep doing this for as long as it takes:

    The NICS system cannot be used as a gun registration system, what people generally mean when they say "registration," i.e. tying guns to owners, because no identifying information is sent about the gun to the FBI. Only identifying information about the person is sent. No matter how much or how often folks try to pull me off that point or distract from it (dishonestly, in this latest case), my current focus is to bust the myth, that is all too prevalent, that the NICS check is somehow a gun registration system. It is not.

    I can keep doing this, and judging from the relative sizes of the posts, a helluva lot more easily than the distracting replies.

    Not moving on.

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