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Thread: Are We All Equiped To Carry, And...

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Are We All Equiped To Carry, And...

    shoot another human being?

    I have been asking myself this question, frequently, these past couple of weeks. I know a lot of firearm owners, and I know many more individuals who do no own firearms. Some firearm owners are aggressive, some are passive; just like non firearm owners that I know. Can a inherently passive person not hesitate to shoot a perp when SHTF?--I consider myself inherently aggressive (not overly, IMO. I draw a line, and when it's stepped over, I respond.), and I am aware of my own hesitation when the SHTF.

    I know individuals who are weak, and I'm not talking about physically, I'm talking about running head-on into a volatile situation, while retaining the emotional fortitude necessary to an effective, efficient resolution to your intended end. I don't question their ability to carry a firearm...any monkey could do that. I question their ability to draw their sidearm, point it at another human being, look them dead in the eye, and pull the trigger. I don't know, maybe some of these individuals would surprise me, but I think more would fall lock-step in my assessment of their passive nature.

    So, why the post?

    I'm wondering: Does anyone else here think it's a bad idea for someone to carry if they aren't willing, but most importantly ABLE to use their sidearm for it's intended purpose: To shoot another human being.--or an animal, if necessary? Really, though, what we're talking about here, primarily, when we talk about CC/OC is for the purpose of self-defense, and the shot is likely to be fired at a person, not an animal.

    Not trying to be political here, not trying to flame anything, just laying it out...see how it plays out.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 03-23-2013 at 03:44 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post

    I'm wondering: Does anyone else here think it's a bad idea for someone to carry if they aren't willing, but most importantly ABLE to use their sidearm for it's intended purpose: To shoot another human being.--or an animal, if necessary? .
    Well, I don't see the harm it would cause plus the deterrent effect is a good enough reason ...

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    No one knows until after they done shot the troll.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Are We All Equiped To Carry, And...

    The only potential harm I see is to the gun carrier who draws and is then shot as the result of their hesitation. I do agree with the deterrent value of open carry.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    ....

    I'm wondering: Does anyone else here think it's a bad idea for someone to carry if they aren't willing, but most importantly ABLE to use their sidearm for it's intended purpose: To shoot another human being. ....
    ::raises hand::

    Although I would reverse your phrasing - most folks are physically able to shoot a firearm; being psychologically willing to do so is IMHO the BIG ISSUE.

    When the brown stuff hits the air mover, one needs to rotate the goblin repulsion lever, not think about what it all means and what will come of it later.

    If asked, I have always counseled that before purchasing a handgun for self defense the individual should be able to answer to themselves the question: "Will I pull the trigger, knowing that doing so probably will cause the death of another human being and significant and long-lasting emotional and financial distress to me personally and to my family?" Unless you can answer in the afirmative, and answer so without any doubt, reservation or hesitation, I suggest that the person is not yet ready to carry a firearm for self defense.

    Asking and then answering that question seems to help people see that using a firearm for self defense is a last resort and that there are a multitude of actions one can take before that last resort in order to try and avoid coming to that last resort. Sometimes I will set up scenarios with the person and ask them to walk me through everything they could/would do, including shooting in self defense. The purpose is to expose as many opportunities as might exist for avoiding the situation or deescalating the situation or withdrawing safely from the situation before arriving at the point of rotating the goblin repulsion lever.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    No one knows until after they done shot the troll.
    I can go along with the above. Each circumstance is different, sometimes it is just going to be darn difficult to pull the trigger.
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    I don't care. It's not my call. It is the call of the person whose Right it is to carry to decide whether or not carry is right for them.

    I know that I am able to use my firearms--and willing to do so to protect me and mine. That is all that should matter to me. Whether or not you should be carrying is a question that YOU should answer. I am afraid (considering the source) that the question is being asked because someone in particular is going to make pronouncements about who is or is not fit to carry--not a judgment any of us (or the government) should be making without due process of law.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    ::raises hand::

    Although I would reverse your phrasing - most folks are physically able to shoot a firearm; being psychologically willing to do so is IMHO the BIG ISSUE.

    When the brown stuff hits the air mover, one needs to rotate the goblin repulsion lever, not think about what it all means and what will come of it later.

    If asked, I have always counseled that before purchasing a handgun for self defense the individual should be able to answer to themselves the question: "Will I pull the trigger, knowing that doing so probably will cause the death of another human being and significant and long-lasting emotional and financial distress to me personally and to my family?" Unless you can answer in the afirmative, and answer so without any doubt, reservation or hesitation, I suggest that the person is not yet ready to carry a firearm for self defense.

    Asking and then answering that question seems to help people see that using a firearm for self defense is a last resort and that there are a multitude of actions one can take before that last resort in order to try and avoid coming to that last resort. Sometimes I will set up scenarios with the person and ask them to walk me through everything they could/would do, including shooting in self defense. The purpose is to expose as many opportunities as might exist for avoiding the situation or deescalating the situation or withdrawing safely from the situation before arriving at the point of rotating the goblin repulsion lever.

    stay safe.
    I knew I shouldn't have added "able." I didn't mean Able, as in physically able. I meant only Willing.

    When someone asks my opinion on what type of firearm they ought to get for carry, I have asked, "Are you willing to shoot someone if the situation arises?" Most of them sit there, like they haven't though about it before. I tell them to think about it real hard, and if they can't in honestly answer "yes," don't purchase a firearm for home or self-defense; I tell them to get some other self-defense weapon.

    Of course, no person knows until they have their firearm pointed at someone, and are pulling the trigger...it ought to be the first question a person asks of themself, IMO.

    As for deterrent, that's assuming the firearm has a deterrent affect on the perp; secondary, IMO. Don't assume your firearm is going to have a deterrent affect on a person.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 03-23-2013 at 08:46 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I don't care. It's not my call. It is the call of the person whose Right it is to carry to decide whether or not carry is right for them.

    I know that I am able to use my firearms--and willing to do so to protect me and mine. That is all that should matter to me. Whether or not you should be carrying is a question that YOU should answer. I am afraid (considering the source) that the question is being asked because someone in particular is going to make pronouncements about who is or is not fit to carry--not a judgment any of us (or the government) should be making without due process of law.

    The post isn't about you, or what you would do for your family. The post is about individuals asking their self whether or not they would pull the trigger, and if they don't believe they can pull the trigger, whether or not it's a good idea to carry a firearm.

    If a person told me they wanted to carry, but are not willing to pull the trigger if the time came, I would encourage them not to carry until they sorted that issue out. Or, you could just not care, not say anything, because it isn't your problem.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    The post isn't about you, or what you would do for your family. The post is about individuals asking their self whether or not they would pull the trigger, and if they don't believe they can pull the trigger, whether or not it's a good idea to carry a firearm.

    If a person told me they wanted to carry, but are not willing to pull the trigger if the time came, I would encourage them not to carry until they sorted that issue out. Or, you could just not care, not say anything, because it isn't your problem.
    But when it boils down to it, whether it is eye, or somebody else it is not your call. Me, I would tell you to mind your own business, no offense meant.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    But when it boils down to it, whether it is eye, or somebody else it is not your call. Me, I would tell you to mind your own business, no offense meant.
    I never stated it is my call. I have had a number of individuals tell me they wanted to get their CC, and buy a firearm, and have asked me, for example, what type of handgun they ought to purchase. The first question out of my mouth is, "Are you willing to shoot another human being if the situation arose?" If they say "no," or seem to have to think about it, I tell them to think about whether or not they will be willing to, then I will help them look over the vast options available for carry and home defense. If they say "no," then I recommend they get a taser, spray, etc.

    I know people that carry a knife, they don't practice with it, they don't think about how bad it would suck to get into a knife fight.--I tell them to expect to get cut, to practice with it. Just like I tell people who carry, "Be prepared, and expect to get arrested."--call me cynical when it comes to the justice system, but I'm expecting to get arrested if I pull the trigger, I have prepared my kids for that possibility.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 03-23-2013 at 08:57 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    "f a person told me they wanted to carry, but are not willing to pull the trigger if the time came, I would encourage them not to carry until they sorted that issue out. Or, you could just not care, not say anything, because it isn't your problem."

    These are your words are they not?
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    I never stated it is my call. I have had a number of individuals tell me they wanted to get their CC, and buy a firearm, and have asked me, for example, what type of handgun they ought to purchase. The first question out of my mouth is, "Are you willing to shoot another human being if the situation arose?" If they say "no," or seem to have to think about it, I tell them to think about whether or not they will be willing to, then I will help them look over the vast options available for carry and home defense. If they say "no," then I recommend they get a taser, spray, etc.

    I know people that carry a knife, they don't practice with it, they don't think about how bad it would suck to get into a knife fight.--I tell them to expect to get cut, to practice with it. Just like I tell people who carry, "Be prepared, and expect to get arrested."--call me cynical when it comes to the justice system, but I'm expecting to get arrested if I pull the trigger, I have prepared my kids for that possibility.
    None of it is your business, it is their decision, whether it is a good one or not.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    "f a person told me they wanted to carry, but are not willing to pull the trigger if the time came, I would encourage them not to carry until they sorted that issue out. Or, you could just not care, not say anything, because it isn't your problem."

    These are your words are they not?
    Yes, those are my words. I'm sure you have a point, or are making one.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    None of it is your business, it is their decision, whether it is a good one or not.
    I didn't state it is any of my business.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Actually you claimed that you told people if they should carry or not, what would you call that? The whole purpose of the thread has to do with decisions other people make, not those decisions you make. With all due respect each person has to make their own determination of why, how, and when they carry, and accept responsibility for it. No one knows for sure how they will react in any given situation, and there is no magic eight ball for any of us to decide for them.

    I learned a long time ago that the only person I could control was myself, it has worked for me very well.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Actually you claimed that you told people if they should carry or not, what would you call that? The whole purpose of the thread has to do with decisions other people make, not those decisions you make. With all due respect each person has to make their own determination of why, how, and when they carry, and accept responsibility for it. No one knows for sure how they will react in any given situation, and there is no magic eight ball for any of us to decide for them.

    I learned a long time ago that the only person I could control was myself, it has worked for me very well.
    I said that if a person asks me about getting their license, and a sidearm, I ask them first, whether or not they are willing to shoot a person, if they had to, if they say "no," then I encourage them to think about it before getting a firearm, and carrying. I'm not telling them what to do, they can do whatever they want.

    Each individual makes the decision for their self.--no person in this thread is arguing otherwise.

    No person knows for sure, I agree, and have not stated otherwise.

    Control over yourself, that's debatable. Control over others...just as likely as control over ones self.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 03-23-2013 at 09:11 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    In your OP you mention nothing about being asked...
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
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    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    The process of deciding you could or could not take a life in a self defense situation takes time. Once you decide you could, there's also an education process of learning the laws, other options, and how to respond if you do fire.

    Acquiring a suitable weapon can be done at the first step or anywhere in the middle of that process. It can become a self-fulfilling prophecy, once a proud new owners sees, handles, and becomes familiar with their weapon. Practice teaches both respect for its power and the realization that it is not an all-powerful panic button that solves all problems.

    I would not discourage someone from purchasing a self defense weapon.

    I would say "Buy it!" as well as "I'll take you to the range!" and encourage their growth.

    The military has taken millions of young people that have never had a serious thought of killing and taught them how. It is a learned behavior.

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    I'm wondering: Does anyone else here think it's a bad idea for someone to carry if they aren't willing, but most importantly ABLE to use their sidearm for it's intended purpose: To shoot another human being.--or an animal, if necessary? Really, though, what we're talking about here, primarily, when we talk about CC/OC is for the purpose of self-defense, and the shot is likely to be fired at a person, not an animal.

    Not trying to be political here, not trying to flame anything, just laying it out...see how it plays out.
    Your scenario is lacking detail. In general I think it is a bad idea if one OCs but lacks the determination to do what must be done in a specific situation. Granted, there is a deterrent effect in OC. BGs will almost always look for an easier target. A "volatile situation" could be any number of things, and some volatile situations will be easier to spot than others.

    If you find yourself (for some reason) walking down the sidewalk, in a poorly lit, unfamiliar area of town, and are being approached by a group of young people (late-teens, early 20s) you can see the potential for a volatile situation. You can move to the other side of the street in an attempt to avoid a potentially serious (i.e. - deadly) confrontation. If they cross with you, your red flag should go up, and if they don't you have resolved the situation. I understand the "knock-out game" is quite popular among young people these days.

    If you see someone being mugged - or worse - on the street, you have one decision to make immediately (assuming you haven't done so in advance). Do I voluntarily get involved or do I withdraw from the area? Do I open myself up to possible arrest and imprisonment, or do I play it safe? It's a 0-1 call, and it's all yours.

    The decision to deploy one's firearm and activate it's lethal cargo is an individual one. Just because you carry you are not an enforcer of the law, nor are you obligated in any legal sense to take any action other than calling 911 on your cellphone. Some folks will argue that we have a "moral responsibility" to assist others in trouble - and it's true for some of us who share that same sense of what's moral. Warning shots are not a good idea, since they all abide by the Newtonian laws - if they are moving they will come to rest... somewhere... and they will do so with impact.

    When we carry (and even when we don't) we must be aware of our surroundings at all times - looking for things that are out of the ordinary. Hoodies up and covering faces in warm weather, furtive movements, gang colors and signs, people muttering to themselves or having a nice chat with God, etc. We never know when a potential threat may become an active assault. If you aren't in the right mindset, a second of hesitation can cost you your life. But then, so can acting a second too soon. It's your decision - nobody else can make it for you. Your gun, your choice. Pax...
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I agree with Wolf and Eye. It's not up to one individual to decide for another individual what they should or shouldn't do. It's not up to many individuals to decide this either.

    I was asked by my friend one time, "Could you handle the issues of taking another persons life, if you were forced to?"

    My reply..."I don't know, but at least I'd be alive to deal with those issues."

    I think the truth of the matter is when SHTF, some people who thought they were prepared won't be and some people who didn't think they were prepared will have the natural instinct of survival kick in.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 03-24-2013 at 09:51 AM.
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    Are We All Equiped To Carry, And...

    I had this convo with my sister-in-law in December. She wanted to run out and buy a pistol because she wanted to assert the right to own a gun, because of politics. She was mugged last year, but that wasn't what her motivation was.

    She is hand to mouth and this isn't food or shelter, so such a purchase is far from easy. She has a young son (and his friends are in the house frequently), so I told her it had to be locked up if it wasn't with her. I asked about her will to shoot people if needed, to start the thought process.

    She asked for my opinion. I offered to take her to the range so I could get her started on the decision, and so she could try my array of guns to see what fit her hand. She ended up going shooting with a guy she knows who is "army, so he knows all about guns". I told her that might be a bad idea, but so it goes. She hasn't said a word about it since.

    I'd like to take her shooting a few times and turn her into a gun girl, but didn't want her to run out and buy a gun without thinking it through.

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    Are We All Equiped To Carry, And...

    The only delay I would have suggested would be just long enough to fire several different models at the range until she knows what she can handle well--then buy the same or very similar model. This would be consumer advice, not advice on the exercise of the Right.

    AFTER she buys the gun, it would be wise for her to get some training before carrying it. But neither I nor the government should dictate this.


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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    The only delay I would have suggested would be just long enough to fire several different models at the range until she knows what she can handle well--then buy the same or very similar model. This would be consumer advice, not advice on the exercise of the Right.

    AFTER she buys the gun, it would be wise for her to get some training before carrying it. But neither I nor the government should dictate this.


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    I agree completely, and add that the OP has no business attempting to dictate this.
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    Re: Are We All Equiped To Carry, And...

    Back the the OT. My school of thought on this is simple. As human animals we have an instinctive fight or flight response. How ever over the years of servitude and brainwashing there is now a third response that has been engineered into us. To freeze. That response will get you killed. I believe that most people will overcome this though, when their lives are threatened. That being the case, I believe that most people would pull the trigger inspite of what hollywierd would have us believe. Not because they want to do harm to someone else, but because the will to survive is so high when threatened.

    For me personally, I have had no hesitation in the past(granted I was in a combat zone). I also have the advantage of a considerable amount of training and experience in the subject. The thing I always try to teach folks that you don't shoot to kill, you shoot to stop. If the attacker dies because you had to stop them, that's on them, not you.

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