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Thread: Next to Last Resort: Baton?

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    Next to Last Resort: Baton?

    I'll admit right off that I may be wrong, but I believe the expandable (police) baton is illegal to carry. And that's a problem for me given the emphasis on use of a defensive firearm as a last resort. The question is if the intruder/assailant isn't producing a gun as a part of his threat why would a baton with proper training not be a viable use of force to avoid or at least precede use of one's defensive firearm? That then leads to the bottom line question: Why is a baton illegal to carry?

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double D View Post
    I'll admit right off that I may be wrong, but I believe the expandable (police) baton is illegal to carry. And that's a problem for me given the emphasis on use of a defensive firearm as a last resort. The question is if the intruder/assailant isn't producing a gun as a part of his threat why would a baton with proper training not be a viable use of force to avoid or at least precede use of one's defensive firearm? That then leads to the bottom line question: Why is a baton illegal to carry?
    Laws concerning carrying a baton would be state specific, while it might be legal in one, it could be illegal in another. Here in NC many believe batons, tasers, pepper spray, fixed blade knives are illegal. I had this disagreement with a CC instructor. But they are only illegal IF they are concealed, not openly carried. If you ask in your state forum someone there possibly can clear it up for you.

    Oooops! Forgot~~Welcome to OCDO!
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 03-25-2013 at 09:29 AM.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Welcome to OCDO.

    WTF you talkin' about
    Quote Originally Posted by Double D View Post
    ... with proper training ....
    Self defense is a natural right. All means of self defense ought to be available to law abiding citizens without prior restraint. Handguns, batons (police or drum majorette), Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulators that do or do not produce earth-shattering kabooms.

    Once you turn a right into a privilege you get to impose conditions and restrictions. While "we" all seem to agree that training is a good thing, mandating training means that the government gets to say who, how, and when you can <activity trained to do>.

    As "we" are not agents of the state, who can cause the state to be held responsible for our actions, there should be no prior skills qualification. If you screw up you go to jail and/or get sued.

    Just one guy's opinion.

    stay safe.
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    other than gun

    i once saw a guy walk out of wally world with a machetti on one hip and a dagger aprox. 18 inches long on the other hip.
    i made the assumption that he was not allowed to carry firearms, OR he may have been fantasizing about defending himself in a very
    upclose personal fashion....but i didnt ask.
    this was in denver, n.c.
    i'd rather be a hammer than a nail.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Welcome to OCDO.

    WTF you talkin' about


    Self defense is a natural right. All means of self defense ought to be available to law abiding citizens without prior restraint. Handguns, batons (police or drum majorette), Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulators that do or do not produce earth-shattering kabooms.

    Once you turn a right into a privilege you get to impose conditions and restrictions. While "we" all seem to agree that training is a good thing, mandating training means that the government gets to say who, how, and when you can <activity trained to do>.

    As "we" are not agents of the state, who can cause the state to be held responsible for our actions, there should be no prior skills qualification. If you screw up you go to jail and/or get sued.

    Just one guy's opinion.

    stay safe.
    Many people put themselves at risk with the privilege. While it is a right to bear arms, and open carry them, many permits only allow handguns to be concealed. So they put a knife on their belt with their CC holstered handgun and cover up, and then are shocked when with the permission card they still get arrested for unlawfully concealing a weapon. I have known CCers who outright ignore signage, and restrictions on carry, because they are concealing. IMO why bother with the permit if you are going to break the rules of the privilege. But then the 4th circuit court has pretty much said if you conceal without a permit, a arrest without RAS is illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by bellyfat View Post
    i once saw a guy walk out of wally world with a machetti on one hip and a dagger aprox. 18 inches long on the other hip.
    i made the assumption that he was not allowed to carry firearms, OR he may have been fantasizing about defending himself in a very
    upclose personal fashion....but i didnt ask.
    this was in denver, n.c.
    I often carry three knives, I carry a fixed blade on my belt, a small pen knife in the pocket, and a folding razor knife in the car. Knives are tools for purposes other than self defense. Using the wrong one for the wrong task can result in a nasty cut. But while the knives you saw may have been a little much there are times I only OC a knife, and then it is usually one with about a 7 to a 8 inch blade. The largest blade knife I have is only 12 inch kukri, but then I do have a machete and swords. My wife occasionally likes to eat in Pizza Hut, or the Chinese restaurant, they both sell beer for onsite consumption.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 03-26-2013 at 10:50 AM.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    As Walking Wolf noted, knowing the law is vitally important. Virginia issues a Concealed Handgun Permit. It used to be a Concealed Weapons Permit but all the other good stuff got traded away for "shall issue".

    In Virginia, carrying a machete is legal unless you are brandishing it http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...cod+18.2-282.1, except that there are some municipalities that supposedly have laws against machetes as prime facie evidence of gang affiliation/gang activity. For that reason, I carry a garden tool in my car, right along side the enhanced-leverage hubcap removal tool that would otherwise be considered a burglar tool should I be stopped at night. If I ever need to change a tire along the shoulder of a road overgrown with grass/weeds, I will need the former, and in order to get the hubcap off I will need the latter. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

    stay safe.
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    Just get a whistle , without the pea of course (we don't want you waking up anyone).

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    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double D View Post
    I'll admit right off that I may be wrong, but I believe the expandable (police) baton is illegal to carry. And that's a problem for me given the emphasis on use of a defensive firearm as a last resort. The question is if the intruder/assailant isn't producing a gun as a part of his threat why would a baton with proper training not be a viable use of force to avoid or at least precede use of one's defensive firearm? That then leads to the bottom line question: Why is a baton illegal to carry?
    Here's the challenge in Michigan; our 'leadership' in Lansing has only seen fit to preempt local regulation of firearms. (ref FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION (EXCERPT) Act 319 of 1990
    123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.
    Sec. 2.
    A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.
    )

    Outside of firearms, every little podunk village has the right to pass laws outlawing ANY sort of weapon- knives, clubs, etc. You run the risk of breaking the law simply by crossing some line on a map.

    Why is a baton illegal? Most likely was a bargaining chip in some negotiations in smoky backrooms in Lansing. What remains, is that they are, indeed, illegal. (ref 750.224 Weapons; manufacture, sale, or possession as felony; violation as felony; penalty; exceptions; "muffler" or "silencer" defined.
    Sec. 224.
    (1) A person shall not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, or possess any of the following:
    (a) A machine gun or firearm that shoots or is designed to shoot automatically more than 1 shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.
    (b) A muffler or silencer.
    (c) A bomb or bombshell.
    (d) A blackjack, slungshot, billy, metallic knuckles, sand club, sand bag, or bludgeon.
    (e) A device, weapon, cartridge, container, or contrivance designed to render a person temporarily or permanently disabled by the ejection, release, or emission of a gas or other substance.
    (2) A person who violates subsection (1) is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or both.
    (3) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) A self-defense spray or foam device as defined in section 224d.
    (b) A person manufacturing firearms, explosives, or munitions of war by virtue of a contract with a department of the government of the United States.
    (c) A person licensed by the secretary of the treasury of the United States or the secretary's delegate to manufacture, sell, or possess a machine gun, or a device, weapon, cartridge, container, or contrivance described in subsection (1).
    (4) As used in this chapter, "muffler" or "silencer" means 1 or more of the following:
    (a) A device for muffling, silencing, or deadening the report of a firearm.
    (b) A combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a muffler or silencer.
    (c) A part, designed or redesigned, and intended only for use in assembling or fabricating a muffler or silencer.)


    My best advice; if you can get close enough to deploy a hand held weapon, you're too darn close. If you have the physical capability, retreat is always your best option. You have no real idea whether your opponent is an MMA fighter, or just a loud drunk, until he disarms you and sticks the baton somewhere uncomfortable.

    If he's simply running his mouth, back away with your head on a swivel. His buddies (that you don't see) are waiting for you to make a mistake.

    Just the advice of an old man, who plans on getting older.....
    Last edited by Shadow Bear; 03-31-2013 at 10:15 PM.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    One of the advantages of being old is nobody blinks seeing a old man with a good hickory, or in my case dogwood cane. And they are legal in every state.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    The bad news has been laid out well in regards to preemption.

    The good news is that most often, if you are a non CPL holder carrying a baton as your only weapon, police have a very distinct tendency to not care in my experience.

    The thing about batons, having used them on dogs, and having talked to cops about them, is that they don't always work as they're supposed to. My experience on a big dog was that I had to hit it in the head after trying body shots, which ASP is very specific about not doing, since it can end up causing death. I have also heard horror stories about the smaller ones being ineffective. So they are not something I would generally trust, especially the 16 and 21 inch models.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Next to Last Resort: Baton?

    Well if you have to carry a "club" like weapon best to do so legally. Yes they do have their uses & can be effective (better than nothing). Try a 6 D or C cell maglight. In MI they are legal to carry ( for now) / to lessen the weight use non metallic cased batteries. Two fold defense/attack - flash in eyes ( Bad guy blinded) then strike. Best - no, but again better than nothing. Bonus can be found online for under $30 far less than most police batons.
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    Re: Next to Last Resort: Baton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    Here's the challenge in Michigan; our 'leadership' in Lansing has only seen fit to preempt local regulation of firearms. (ref FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION (EXCERPT) Act 319 of 1990
    123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.
    Sec. 2.
    A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.
    )

    Outside of firearms, every little podunk village has the right to pass laws outlawing ANY sort of weapon- knives, clubs, etc. You run the risk of breaking the law simply by crossing some line on a map.

    Why is a baton illegal? Most likely was a bargaining chip in some negotiations in smoky backrooms in Lansing. What remains, is that they are, indeed, illegal. (ref 750.224 Weapons; manufacture, sale, or possession as felony; violation as felony; penalty; exceptions; "muffler" or "silencer" defined.
    Sec. 224.
    (1) A person shall not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, or possess any of the following:
    (a) A machine gun or firearm that shoots or is designed to shoot automatically more than 1 shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.
    (b) A muffler or silencer.
    (c) A bomb or bombshell.
    (d) A blackjack, slungshot, billy, metallic knuckles, sand club, sand bag, or bludgeon.
    (e) A device, weapon, cartridge, container, or contrivance designed to render a person temporarily or permanently disabled by the ejection, release, or emission of a gas or other substance.
    (2) A person who violates subsection (1) is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or both.
    (3) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) A self-defense spray or foam device as defined in section 224d.
    (b) A person manufacturing firearms, explosives, or munitions of war by virtue of a contract with a department of the government of the United States.
    (c) A person licensed by the secretary of the treasury of the United States or the secretary's delegate to manufacture, sell, or possess a machine gun, or a device, weapon, cartridge, container, or contrivance described in subsection (1).
    (4) As used in this chapter, "muffler" or "silencer" means 1 or more of the following:
    (a) A device for muffling, silencing, or deadening the report of a firearm.
    (b) A combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a muffler or silencer.
    (c) A part, designed or redesigned, and intended only for use in assembling or fabricating a muffler or silencer.)


    My best advice; if you can get close enough to deploy a hand held weapon, you're too darn close. If you have the physical capability, retreat is always your best option. You have no real idea whether your opponent is an MMA fighter, or just a loud drunk, until he disarms you and sticks the baton somewhere uncomfortable.

    If he's simply running his mouth, back away with your head on a swivel. His buddies (that you don't see) are waiting for you to make a mistake.

    Just the advice of an old man, who plans on getting older.....
    Although an unpublished opinion, it appears the Dangerous Weapons law you quoted does NOT apply in regards to an expandable baton.

    http://law.justia.com/cases/michigan...12213-opn.html
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    IMO why bother with the permit if you are going to break the rules of the privilege.
    My observation is that the penalties for concealing a weapon without a CPL are far steeper than the penalties for concealing in a PFZ with a CPL... my best guess.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Well if you have to carry a "club" like weapon best to do so legally. Yes they do have their uses & can be effective (better than nothing). Try a 6 D or C cell maglight. In MI they are legal to carry ( for now) / to lessen the weight use non metallic cased batteries. Two fold defense/attack - flash in eyes ( Bad guy blinded) then strike. Best - no, but again better than nothing. Bonus can be found online for under $30 far less than most police batons.
    Not as cheap and not as easy, but Malkoff XM-L drop in into a 4D mag, and take a piece of iron pipe with caps on both ends sized the same as a D cell, and smelt some lead into it and replace the tail end battery with it. This will give you 10 times more than enough light to blind someone at night, and well more smashing potential than it takes to stop a bad guy if all the years of police abuse are any indication.

    Laws? Not making any promises there. Good luck if anyone tries this.
    Last edited by Michigander; 04-01-2013 at 08:25 PM.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Next to Last Resort: Baton?

    Don't ask me how I know this, but the maglite mentioned above is quite capable of breaking bones ( collar bones / ribs etc....) so avoid head shots unless you are trying to send the undertaker some business...
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Yep, the lead weight thing definitely takes a maglite from being lethal and makes it more lethal.

    But then we do deal in lead, friend. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GE9P56tK4o

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Next to Last Resort: Baton?

    I dig the bad guy's line of: "if God didn't want them sheared, he would not have made them sheep!" Reminds of the mind set of many Detroit area "officials" -

    Great movie my friend. In my top 10.
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    Thanks to All

    Shadow Bear, et al, thanks for your comments on my baton question. I've researched and read the firearm laws of Michigan and too noted that "baton" isn't specifically addressed, but learned "our leadership" sees no difference between it and the items the law does mention leaving the baton illegal. Unfortunate I think as I can see valid uses for it. Also, I'm always looking for ways to reinforce a plea of self-defense in the unlikely event a situation ultimately requires use of a firearm and "leadership" insists on a court challenge.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    I guess maybe I'm stupid.. but I personally do not see any advantage to Tasers, pepper spray, or batons. Either there is a clear, immediate, and absolutely positive threat of death or great bodily harm... or there is not. If there is respond accordingly... if there isn't then why in hell would anyone bother getting into an ego centered "mine is bigger than yours" fight?

    Me? I'm walking away... if the other guy won't let me walk away then we are back to the "clear, immediate, and absolutely positive threat of death or great bodily harm"... and my response will be appropriate.

    But then.. I'm an old fart with bad knees so I can't run... and a bad heart so I can't take a punch... and I never did believe in the adolescent BS of the obvious lack of confidence in one's own manliness evidenced by the "I can kick yer arse!" crap.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Next to Last Resort: Baton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    I guess maybe I'm stupid.. but I personally do not see any advantage to Tasers, pepper spray, or batons. Either there is a clear, immediate, and absolutely positive threat of death or great bodily harm... or there is not. If there is respond accordingly... if there isn't then why in hell would anyone bother getting into an ego centered "mine is bigger than yours" fight?

    Me? I'm walking away... if the other guy won't let me walk away then we are back to the "clear, immediate, and absolutely positive threat of death or great bodily harm"... and my response will be appropriate.

    But then.. I'm an old fart with bad knees so I can't run... and a bad heart so I can't take a punch... and I never did believe in the adolescent BS of the obvious lack of confidence in one's own manliness evidenced by the "I can kick yer arse!" crap.
    I hear you Bikenut. However somethings like a dog attack etc...may and can be fended off without automatically going to guns. I would much rather mace a dog with poor training than kill it out-right if I have a chance. I know, I'm softy when it comes to our four legged friends.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 04-07-2013 at 03:15 PM.
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    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double D View Post
    I'll admit right off that I may be wrong, but I believe the expandable (police) baton is illegal to carry. And that's a problem for me given the emphasis on use of a defensive firearm as a last resort. The question is if the intruder/assailant isn't producing a gun as a part of his threat why would a baton with proper training not be a viable use of force to avoid or at least precede use of one's defensive firearm? That then leads to the bottom line question: Why is a baton illegal to carry?
    Generally, because the baton is viewed as among the trappings entitled especially to police (along with a gun, were it not for that pesky second amendment).

    This is bolstered by the unreasonable fervor with which police enforce anti-baton laws where they exist.
    Last edited by marshaul; 04-07-2013 at 03:47 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellyfat View Post
    i once saw a guy walk out of wally world with a machetti on one hip and a dagger aprox. 18 inches long on the other hip.
    i made the assumption that he was not allowed to carry firearms, OR he may have been fantasizing about defending himself in a very
    upclose personal fashion....but i didnt ask.
    this was in denver, n.c.
    I made the assumption conclusion that you think entirely too much about others' exercise of their rights.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    I hear you Bikenut. However somethings like a dog attack etc...may and can be fended off without automatically going to guns. I would much rather mace a dog with poor training than kill it out-right if I have a chance. I know, I'm softy when it comes to our four legged friends.
    Again... either there is an immediate threat of great bodily harm or death... or there isn't.

    My good friend... I hear you about dogs.. and let it be known that I personally have a soft spot for all animals (especially dogs and cats) simply because God gave us humans dominion (made us caretakers of) all animals... yet if an animal, any animal from a lap dog to a grizzly bear, is chewing on me and I believe my life/or my body is in danger of great harm... I will respond in whatever manner is necessary to stop being chewed on.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    I'm softy when it comes to our four legged friends.
    Hard to describe something as a "friend" if it forces you to mace it, or anything else.

    I'm as big an animal lover as anybody, but I never understood why some folks will give aggressive, dangerous animals second chances they would never think about giving to a person.

    Sorry, but people are worth more than animals.

    And if an animal endangers me or my property, it's being put down. There's plenty of love left for deserving animals, and no shortage of them either.
    Last edited by marshaul; 04-07-2013 at 03:54 PM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Next to Last Resort: Baton?

    @Marshaul

    I think it is because in the case of dogs, it is usually a bad human responsible for a dog's bad behavior. Don't get me wrong - no other option - dog is done - but again no such thing as a "bad" dog without the help of us humans... Yes human life should come first, no question about that.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 04-07-2013 at 04:03 PM.
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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