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Thread: Movie theaters in Richmond and unlawful search

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    Regular Member JesterP99's Avatar
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    Movie theaters in Richmond and unlawful search

    So, this is a two part question, but the first part is are there any movie theaters in Richmond that are gun friendly.

    Secondly, we went to the movies last week and we snuck candy in so we weren't completely stolen from. My fiance asked what if they ask to search her bag, I told her that wouldn't happen because that was a violation of our 4th amendment right and if they asked to do that I would tell them no and we would either get our money back and leave or go in anyway.

    Now from a legal position perspective, how can they get away with that, or can they? And how does that compare to kings dominion where they not only search everyone's bag but they put you through metal detectors.

    How can we let companies get away with violating our rights?

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JesterP99 View Post
    So, this is a two part question, but the first part is are there any movie theaters in Richmond that are gun friendly.

    Secondly, we went to the movies last week and we snuck candy in so we weren't completely stolen from. My fiance asked what if they ask to search her bag, I told her that wouldn't happen because that was a violation of our 4th amendment right and if they asked to do that I would tell them no and we would either get our money back and leave or go in anyway.

    Now from a legal position perspective, how can they get away with that, or can they? And how does that compare to kings dominion where they not only search everyone's bag but they put you through metal detectors.

    How can we let companies get away with violating our rights?

    Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk 2
    The answer to your illegal search question is the same answer as to the question "How can they require you to submit to a receipt check as you leave BJs, Costco, or Sam's Club?"

    The answer is: None of these places, including the theater, are "the government". They are each private companies (even though some of them are "publicly owned" by their stockholders) that are free to set their own policies and conditions for providing you service.

    Your answer is correct, you are free to patronize or not patronize these companies based on your individual tolerance for allowing them to search you.

    ETA: A lawyerly friend of mine answered this question for me long ago, and he noted that as long as "the government" does not compel you to patronize any place that has such an egregious policy, then your Fourth Amendment rights are not violated. I suppose this has an entirely different answer in NYC, where they ("the government" employees) routinely stop and frisk people with no probable cause, whatsoever.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 03-25-2013 at 03:48 PM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    I don't know of any movie theaters in the area that are not anti self-defense, although I do not read all of the fine print on the ticket, doors, windows, columns and walls.

    They can "ask" most anything and I can refuse accordingly, no permission granted. They have no statutory/legal right to require you to submit to a search or anything else, other than what conditions the impose for everybody under their contractorial agreement. They might even be putting themselves in a difficult position by even asking.

    I ran that gambit when a "manager" asked to see in DoubleTap's purse one time - WHAT! Are you searching everybody or just her? Why are you embarrassing and humiliating her? Does your boss know you are doing this? They took our tickets and let us pass, mumbling amongst themselves. Got a thumbs up from another lady. ymmv
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I don't know of any movie theaters in the area that are not anti self-defense, although I do not read all of the fine print on the ticket, doors, windows, columns and walls.

    They can "ask" most anything and I can refuse accordingly, no permission granted. They have no statutory/legal right to require you to submit to a search or anything else, other than what conditions the impose for everybody under their contractorial agreement. They might even be putting themselves in a difficult position by even asking.

    I ran that gambit when a "manager" asked to see in DoubleTap's purse one time - WHAT! Are you searching everybody or just her? Why are you embarrassing and humiliating her? Does your boss know you are doing this? They took our tickets and let us pass, mumbling amongst themselves. Got a thumbs up from another lady. ymmv
    Bravo!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JesterP99 View Post
    .... because that was a violation of our 4th amendment right ....
    No, no, no - a thousand bazillion times no!

    ONLY the government can violate a constitutional right. Private property owners might violate some law or another that is connected to a consitutional right. (Think of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 - it punishes private property owners whose actions are contrary to the 14th and 15th Amendments. Part of the criminal penalty might be an award to compensate you for the (legal) hurt you suffered but it is not guaranteed.

    In your case, if a theater employee tried to search you they would have committed an assault - the unwanted touching by another. You get a warrant charging them with assault. They get convicted and get punished. Then you sue them in civil court for compensation. They sign a consent decree stating they never did it and will never do it again, and give you $$ to shut up and go away.

    But when the government violates the 14th or 15th Amendment they can be sued using 42 CFR 1984 or other means of seeking redress from government infringing your rights and you get money to make you whole again. And they sign a consent decree ....

    Now to the heart of the matter - you and your wife intentionally conspired to violate a known condition of entry to the movie theater. There may not be a law against it but you knew it was "not right". I would point the Finger of Shame at you, but the last time I did something like that - well, you know the story. Go live with your consience. (I know I could.)

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I suppose this has an entirely different answer in NYC, where they ("the government" employees) routinely stop and frisk people with no probable cause, whatsoever.

    TFred
    Seriously, this goes on up there? Just random stops and searches on the street? Wow, one more reason not to go there, let alone live there (not that I would, you understand... they talk funny).
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    Re: Movie theaters in Richmond and unlawful search

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I don't know of any movie theaters in the area that are not anti self-defense, although I do not read all of the fine print on the ticket, doors, windows, columns and walls.

    They can "ask" most anything and I can refuse accordingly, no permission granted. They have no statutory/legal right to require you to submit to a search or anything else, other than what conditions the impose for everybody under their contractorial agreement. They might even be putting themselves in a difficult position by even asking.

    I ran that gambit when a "manager" asked to see in DoubleTap's purse one time - WHAT! Are you searching everybody or just her? Why are you embarrassing and humiliating her? Does your boss know you are doing this? They took our tickets and let us pass, mumbling amongst themselves. Got a thumbs up from another lady. ymmv
    Lol.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Seriously, this goes on up there? Just random stops and searches on the street? Wow, one more reason not to go there, let alone live there (not that I would, you understand... they talk funny).
    I thought everyone had heard about this by now!

    New York City stop-and-frisk program

    Of course they say "reasonably suspects," but we all know what that really means.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    The answer to your illegal search question is the same answer as to the question "How can they require you to submit to a receipt check as you leave BJs, Costco, or Sam's Club?"

    The answer is: None of these places, including the theater, are "the government". They are each private companies (even though some of them are "publicly owned" by their stockholders) that are free to set their own policies and conditions for providing you service.

    Your answer is correct, you are free to patronize or not patronize these companies based on your individual tolerance for allowing them to search you.

    ETA: A lawyerly friend of mine answered this question for me long ago, and he noted that as long as "the government" does not compel you to patronize any place that has such an egregious policy, then your Fourth Amendment rights are not violated. I suppose this has an entirely different answer in NYC, where they ("the government" employees) routinely stop and frisk people with no probable cause, whatsoever.

    TFred
    It is simply a contractual agreement that you knowingly entered into. They cannot force you to submit to it, only terminate your contract for failure to do so.

    Possibly also file a lawsuit if they could somehow convince a lawyer to take the case - and show some 'loss' from your failure to comply with the terms of the contract.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JesterP99 View Post
    So, this is a two part question, but the first part is are there any movie theaters in Richmond that are gun friendly.

    Secondly, we went to the movies last week and we snuck candy in so we weren't completely stolen from. My fiance asked what if they ask to search her bag, I told her that wouldn't happen because that was a violation of our 4th amendment right and if they asked to do that I would tell them no and we would either get our money back and leave or go in anyway.

    Now from a legal position perspective, how can they get away with that, or can they? And how does that compare to kings dominion where they not only search everyone's bag but they put you through metal detectors.

    How can we let companies get away with violating our rights?

    Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk 2
    Don't know about the theaters there but in VA BH they all say in their signs that you agree to any searches as a condition of entry.

    I also hate the whole search bags thing and my wife has been through it a couple of times -- yes, she smuggles things in. She's diabetic and they have nothing available there which she can have. She was "caught" one time but the kid searching her said that he was only looking for weapons and didn't care about her diabetic snacks. I didn't have a purse so I didn't get searched.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    The answer to your illegal search question is the same answer as to the question "How can they require you to submit to a receipt check as you leave BJs, Costco, or Sam's Club?"

    The answer is: None of these places, including the theater, are "the government". They are each private companies (even though some of them are "publicly owned" by their stockholders) that are free to set their own policies and conditions for providing you service.

    Your answer is correct, you are free to patronize or not patronize these companies based on your individual tolerance for allowing them to search you.

    ETA: A lawyerly friend of mine answered this question for me long ago, and he noted that as long as "the government" does not compel you to patronize any place that has such an egregious policy, then your Fourth Amendment rights are not violated. I suppose this has an entirely different answer in NYC, where they ("the government" employees) routinely stop and frisk people with no probable cause, whatsoever.

    TFred
    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    It is simply a contractual agreement that you knowingly entered into. They cannot force you to submit to it, only terminate your contract for failure to do so.

    Possibly also file a lawsuit if they could somehow convince a lawyer to take the case - and show some 'loss' from your failure to comply with the terms of the contract.
    I don't know of anyone who has ever found a place where they state in writing that you are required to submit to a search. So I don't see how they could say you are in breach of contract. What would be funny would be for a customer to sue THEM for insisting that they undergo a search for no just cause, when they kick you out, then for their failure to live up to their obligation to provide a service for which they were paid (membership in the store.)

    TFred

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Conditions of entry....same reason you can't bring a gun in there if they don't allow them.
    James Reynolds

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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    Don't know about the theaters there but in VA BH they all say in their signs that you agree to any searches as a condition of entry.

    .
    Signs, smines .... when a business wants to its a civil matter ... they touch you w/o your permission, then it becomes criminal ... you are free to walk away ...

    Just wear your own sign ... allowing me to contract with you means I can do anything ... then start getting your free popcorn (before anyone like eye starts a-moan'in -- its a joke)

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I thought everyone had heard about this by now!

    New York City stop-and-frisk program

    Of course they say "reasonably suspects," but we all know what that really means.

    TFred
    I had heard this but had not heard that their stop and frisk program was targeting pretty much anyone they took a hankering to hassle a bit. But then again, it IS NYC and we know what kind of mayor they have so I suppose anything is possible up there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Conditions of entry....same reason you can't bring a gun in there if they don't allow them.

    Same reason you're NOT SUPPOSED TO bring a gun in there if they don't allow them. It's called a property rule. Violating a property rule is not a criminal offense.
    Last edited by paramedic70002; 03-26-2013 at 12:30 AM.
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    Re: Movie theaters in Richmond and unlawful search

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    No, no, no - a thousand bazillion times no!

    ONLY the government can violate a constitutional right. Private property owners might violate some law or another that is connected to a consitutional right. (Think of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 - it punishes private property owners whose actions are contrary to the 14th and 15th Amendments. Part of the criminal penalty might be an award to compensate you for the (legal) hurt you suffered but it is not guaranteed.

    In your case, if a theater employee tried to search you they would have committed an assault - the unwanted touching by another. You get a warrant charging them with assault. They get convicted and get punished. Then you sue them in civil court for compensation. They sign a consent decree stating they never did it and will never do it again, and give you $$ to shut up and go away.

    But when the government violates the 14th or 15th Amendment they can be sued using 42 CFR 1984 or other means of seeking redress from government infringing your rights and you get money to make you whole again. And they sign a consent decree ....

    Now to the heart of the matter - you and your wife intentionally conspired to violate a known condition of entry to the movie theater. There may not be a law against it but you knew it was "not right". I would point the Finger of Shame at you, but the last time I did something like that - well, you know the story. Go live with your consience. (I know I could.)

    stay safe.
    I'm sorry but I don't think there is anything wrong with bringing candy into movie theater. My conscience is completely safe. I just don't know how a movie theater can get away with charging $4 for a 16oz cup of soda and then try to tell me that the "one free refill sign" at the bottom only refers to the large drink and that "they have been meaning to change that to fix all the confusion." honestly, movies are one of the biggest scams out there (I don't even know why I agree to go).

    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I don't know of anyone who has ever found a place where they state in writing that you are required to submit to a search. So I don't see how they could say you are in breach of contract. What would be funny would be for a customer to sue THEM for insisting that they undergo a search for no just cause, when they kick you out, then for their failure to live up to their obligation to provide a service for which they were paid (membership in the store.)

    TFred
    I have read that a lot of movie theaters stopped searching bags because they were being sued by patrons. I think the thought of a huge lawsuit is enough to deter them. Evidently they won't search a woman's purse because that could contain "sensitive woman's products" but a backpack is fair game.

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    Regular Member Numenor's Avatar
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    Bowtie Theater down near the Diamond is the best you will get in Richmond. They are unofficially carry friendly given their lack of signs. However.... given that all other theaters ban firearms I would imagine OCing there would result in signs being posted. Take from this what you will, and make your own choice on how you carry there if you choose to patronize them. I myself try to avoid rocking that particular boat.
    Last edited by Numenor; 03-26-2013 at 10:11 PM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Numenor View Post
    Bowtie Theater down near the Diamond is the best you will get in Richmond. They are unofficially carry friendly given their lack of signs. However.... given that all other theaters ban firearms I would imagine OCing there would result in signs being posted. Take from this what you will, and make your own choice on how you carry there if you choose to patronize them. I myself try to avoid rocking that particular boat.
    When Bow Tie Cinemas first opened, they seemed OC neutral. Numerous people from this site, including myself, reported no problems. Some time after they opened, people started getting turned away. One of the members made a plea with the ownership and the response came back No Guns.

    Early good reports June 2009 - post#823 - #825
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...nd-area/page33

    Still good in Aug. 2009 - quote in post #1126
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...nd-area/page46

    Mgt explains their No Gun Policy Oct. 2009 - it was posted on OCDO, but didn't find it.
    Found this one instead:
    http://news.oldva.org/?p=1699

    Many were disappointed that the ownership would not discuss it further.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    No, no, no - a thousand bazillion times no!

    ONLY the government can violate a constitutional right. Private property owners might violate some law or another that is connected to a consitutional right. (Think of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 - it punishes private property owners whose actions are contrary to the 14th and 15th Amendments. Part of the criminal penalty might be an award to compensate you for the (legal) hurt you suffered but it is not guaranteed.

    In your case, if a theater employee tried to search you they would have committed an assault - the unwanted touching by another. You get a warrant charging them with assault. They get convicted and get punished. Then you sue them in civil court for compensation. They sign a consent decree stating they never did it and will never do it again, and give you $$ to shut up and go away.

    But when the government violates the 14th or 15th Amendment they can be sued using 42 CFR 1984 or other means of seeking redress from government infringing your rights and you get money to make you whole again. And they sign a consent decree ....

    Now to the heart of the matter - you and your wife intentionally conspired to violate a known condition of entry to the movie theater. There may not be a law against it but you knew it was "not right". I would point the Finger of Shame at you, but the last time I did something like that - well, you know the story. Go live with your consience. (I know I could.)

    stay safe.
    I don't know about that.

    In his paper Are Cops Constitutional?, Roger Roots points out that early in this country's history, the private citizen who searched without a warrant or on a warrant issued without probable cause was liable to double or triple damages. (If the warrant was issued without probable cause, the magistrate was liable, too.) Understand that at one time, you took your probable cause to a magistrate, got the warrant, and maybe a couple strong friends, and then executed the search yourself, say, for your missing pig at your neighbor's farm. Today's idea that you have to rely on police for everything only serves government.

    But, I see what you're saying about citizens committing assault. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm guessing that an illegal search by a government employee can be the same--assault or trespass.

    I wonder if User will chip in.
    Last edited by Citizen; 03-26-2013 at 11:37 PM.
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    Regular Member Numenor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    When Bow Tie Cinemas first opened, they seemed OC neutral. Numerous people from this site, including myself, reported no problems. Some time after they opened, people started getting turned away. One of the members made a plea with the ownership and the response came back No Guns.

    Early good reports June 2009 - post#823 - #825
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...nd-area/page33

    Still good in Aug. 2009 - quote in post #1126
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...nd-area/page46

    Mgt explains their No Gun Policy Oct. 2009 - it was posted on OCDO, but didn't find it.
    Found this one instead:
    http://news.oldva.org/?p=1699

    Many were disappointed that the ownership would not discuss it further.
    Hmmm... well, they still don't have any sign or notice and this is 4 years after those letters. You'd think they would have put the signs up by now. In either case I will continue to do what I do.... Whatever it is I do. =P
    Last edited by Numenor; 03-27-2013 at 12:05 AM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Numenor View Post
    Hmmm... well, they still don't have any sign or notice and this is 4 years after those letters. You'd think they would have put the signs up by now. In either case I will continue to do what I do.... Whatever it is I do. =P
    Good luck and enjoy whatever it is that you do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Numenor View Post
    Hmmm... well, they still don't have any sign or notice and this is 4 years after those letters. You'd think they would have put the signs up by now. In either case I will continue to do what I do.... Whatever it is I do. =P
    Yep...we got the don't come back with those things talk on the sidewalk.

    I worked with Corporate for a long time but the final decision was CC was OK, OC was not. Much of that decision was based on advice from the Richmond cop working security and I did raise hell about that. I expect his jacket got big enough that he started keeping his opinion to himself.

    Now that I said that, I was told not to OC my gun but I have been back several times and OC'ed my Taser, which is pretty near impossible to tell it's not a gun. No one said a word and as you said, no signs.

    The don't ask policy is fully in force there now. I won't OC a gun because I was asked/told not to. I see no reason other OC'ers other than the ones present that night shouldn't unless singled out.

    Don't ask though or they may decide to put up a sign.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JesterP99 View Post
    I'm sorry but I don't think there is anything wrong with bringing candy into movie theater. My conscience is completely safe. I just don't know how a movie theater can get away with charging $4 for a 16oz cup of soda and then try to tell me that the "one free refill sign" at the bottom only refers to the large drink and that "they have been meaning to change that to fix all the confusion." honestly, movies are one of the biggest scams out there (I don't even know why I agree to go.

    ....
    Sometimes when we make the individual decision to disregard some policy or rule because it is foolish, or accomplishes nothing for the advancement of society, or just rubs us the wrong way, it is better not to broadcast that decision and one's intent to not comport to that rule or policy. Given that our opponent in the civil rights arena do come here and mine for tidbits that demonstrate how bad, crazy, and just generally not nice we gun lovers, we gun toters, we Second Amentment idolators really are, it may not be prudent to give them anything to work with.

    What anyone does personally does not bother me - until that becomes something that is used against all of us, as opposed to the individual. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOZzNOkcEgM

    stay safe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JesterP99 View Post
    I'm sorry but I don't think there is anything wrong with bringing candy into movie theater. My conscience is completely safe. I just don't know how a movie theater can get away with charging $4 for a 16oz cup of soda and then try to tell me that the "one free refill sign" at the bottom only refers to the large drink and that "they have been meaning to change that to fix all the confusion." honestly, movies are one of the biggest scams out there (I don't even know why I agree to go).
    --snip--
    Movie theaters make a majority of their profit from concession sales. W/O that income being sufficient to cover expenses and turn a reasonable profit, there would likely be no movie theaters.

    Do I like the high prices? No, but I think a majority of the blame rests with Hollywood, the cost of making the movie and getting it to the local cinema so that you have the privilege of watching it on a large screen - you're buying a distraction from reality. For that you pay the going rate.......one way or the other.

    http://www.howstuffworks.com/movie-distribution2.htm

    http://money.cnn.com/2002/03/08/smbusiness/q_movies/
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Falls Church, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    392
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Movie theaters make a majority of their profit from concession sales. W/O that income being sufficient to cover expenses and turn a reasonable profit, there would likely be no movie theaters.
    So what? It sounds like you saying that the "entertainment" that movie theaters and "Hollywood" offers is such a public good that they should be able to apply arbitrary protections to ensure a profit.

    I'd never advocate that these practices be prohibited by law, but implying that efforts to circumvent them is immoral seems a little overreaching.

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