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Seller cancels Mark Kelly Ar-15 buy. DENIED

eye95

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No, he cannot make them sell him the gun. If, at any point prior to the transfer, the transferor has any reason to believe that the transferee is a prohibited person or is making a straw purchase, the transferor is to stop the transaction cold.
 

SFCRetired

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Just to address a few points:

1. Mark Kelly is a retired NAVY Captain. It is very unlikely, in my experience, that he does, in fact, know what constitutes an "assault rifle. Source of my experience: Stepbrother is a retired Chief Gunner's Mate (guns) and had even more contempt for some of the Navy officers he served under than I do for some of the Army officers I served under. Remember that it was a Navy officer who ran an obscenely expensive, nearly new minesweeper aground on a protected Phillippine reef, causing its loss.

2. From my limited understanding of the law, when Kelly made the comment about turning the rifle over to the police department, it became a de facto straw purchase.

3. Even if #2 were not the case, when Kelly made his statement, the dealer would have been insane to go through with the sale. He would most probably have been painted in the media as being irresponsible in selling an "assault weapon".
 

eye95

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I enjoy reading your typically high-quality posts such as this one.

#3 is more likely the case. Purchasing a firearm as a bona fide gift is not a straw purchase. However, if Kelly were to try to buy from me under these circumstances, I'd argue this gray area of the law from the exact opposite POV, following your thinking in #3.


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We-the-People

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So what if I'm buying a firearm with the specific intent of reselling it? For instance, a sweet AR shows up on the local shelves and a great price so I purchase it with the specific intent that I'm not going to keep it but instead resell it.

My understanding is that I'm buying it for myself at the time of purchase so it's not a straw purchase. That I intend to sell it to turn a profit doesn't seem to be relevant. I think it's significant that I'm not buying it in order to give it to a particular individual and that it is MY money, not someone else's that is purchasing the weapon.

Now, in the current situation with firearms and ammo I wouldn't blame an FFL for not making the sale in order to keep me from jacking up the price and gouging someone but is it LEGAL?

I believe it is.
 

eye95

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Reselling is not a gift. If you have no one in mind to whom to sell it at the time of purchase, it still is not a straw purchase. Straw purchases are specifically purchases on behalf of another. The other is the one really buying and paying for the firearm; the straw purchaser is only the person doing the paperwork and handing over the money. The source of the money is the other person, who has either provided the money up front, or will reimburse later.


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Aknazer

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I enjoy reading your typically high-quality posts such as this one.

#3 is more likely the case. Purchasing a firearm as a bona fide gift is not a straw purchase. However, if Kelly were to try to buy from me under these circumstances, I'd argue this gray area of the law from the exact opposite POV, following your thinking in #3.


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Correct me if I'm wrong as its been a while since I bought a gun, but doesn't the paperwork ask if you're buying it as a gift? Which would mean that he lied on the paperwork and opens a whole other can of worms.
 

eye95

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No, it doesn't, but the question that asks if you are the actual purchaser states that, if you are buying the firearm as a bona fide gift, you are still considered the actual purchaser.


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Aknazer

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No, it doesn't, but the question that asks if you are the actual purchaser states that, if you are buying the firearm as a bona fide gift, you are still considered the actual purchaser.


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Ahh that must have been what I was remembering.
 

We-the-People

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Reselling is not a gift. If you have no one in mind to whom to sell it at the time of purchase, it still is not a straw purchase. Straw purchases are specifically purchases on behalf of another. The other is the one really buying and paying for the firearm; the straw purchaser is only the person doing the paperwork and handing over the money. The source of the money is the other person, who has either provided the money up front, or will reimburse later.


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Thanks, that was my understanding. Had a store tell me they couldn't make such a sale as it was a straw purchase. Now if they don't want to due to policy that's fine but I was pretty sure it was not a straw purchase and legal.
 

eye95

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Thanks, that was my understanding. Had a store tell me they couldn't make such a sale as it was a straw purchase. Now if they don't want to due to policy that's fine but I was pretty sure it was not a straw purchase and legal.

They are surely playing it safe. Just honestly answer the question asking if you are the actual purchaser, "Yes." You owe them no more explanation than that. Most of the time when we deny a sale, it is because the purchaser elaborated a detail that put the kibosh on the sale. Answer the questions and otherwise do not discuss your intentions.

A discussion I had with a customer: Sweet firearm. I have one and love shooting it at the range.--Oh, I won't be shooting it. It is for my son.--Wow. That's a generous gift.--It's not a gift. He can't buy at the Exchange, so I am getting it for him. He's still paying for it! *snicker*--I am sorry, sir; I cannot sell you this firearm. That would be a straw purchase.--Oh, I see. I guess I will just go ahead and make it a gift then.--I am sorry; I still cannot sell you this gun now.

Be honest in all your answers on the 4473, but do not elaborate!
 

We-the-People

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They are surely playing it safe. Just honestly answer the question asking if you are the actual purchaser, "Yes." You owe them no more explanation than that. Most of the time when we deny a sale, it is because the purchaser elaborated a detail that put the kibosh on the sale. Answer the questions and otherwise do not discuss your intentions.

A discussion I had with a customer: Sweet firearm. I have one and love shooting it at the range.--Oh, I won't be shooting it. It is for my son.--Wow. That's a generous gift.--It's not a gift. He can't buy at the Exchange, so I am getting it for him. He's still paying for it! *snicker*--I am sorry, sir; I cannot sell you this firearm. That would be a straw purchase.--Oh, I see. I guess I will just go ahead and make it a gift then.--I am sorry; I still cannot sell you this gun now.

Be honest in all your answers on the 4473, but do not elaborate!

Good advice and I would definitely not want to be involved in buying a gun for someone else like the scenario you described. I have considered buying a good deal to later resell but in the current state of affair I don't want to be adding to the shortages or be one of the gougers out there.
 

eye95

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There is nothing wrong with gouging. In fact, it is quite moral. Sell things for what the market will bear. If you sell it for less, folks who don't really need it will buy it just because, under the circumstances, it is a good deal. Folks who really need it, badly enough to pay the current market price, will then be denied.

It's called free enterprise. It works. When it is messed with, it doesn't.

The reason for the current shortages is that sellers have not jacked up prices sufficiently to account for the imbalance between demand and supply.
 

marshaul

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There is nothing wrong with gouging. In fact, it is quite moral. Sell things for what the market will bear. If you sell it for less, folks who don't really need it will buy it just because, under the circumstances, it is a good deal. Folks who really need it, badly enough to pay the current market price, will then be denied.

It's called free enterprise. It works. When it is messed with, it doesn't.

The reason for the current shortages is that sellers have not jacked up prices sufficiently to account for the imbalance between demand and supply.

It's really just not that simple.

Ordinarily, a free market is subject to gradual shifts in demand, and supply naturally adjusts to compensate. The value of an object is therefore based fundamentally on the cost to get it to market. If high demand distorts the price too far from this baseline, competitors will even out the supply to compensate. Yes, it takes a free market to actually assign prices to a vague notion of "fundamentally based on the cost it takes to get it to market", but your notion of supply and demand being a zero-sum game is counterproductive at best, not to mention basically wrong.

Yes, in some situations, supply may rapidly dry up, and the cost will rise. But guess what happens then? If the item is truly a necessity, some other equivalent (or nearly equivalent) good will take its place.

Also, in a "free market", the government is not a major player in the market (it doesn't monopolize the supply to themselves, or even a portion of it), and it doesn't artificially distort it either with threats of regulation or bans. That's not a free market at all.

So, first of all, even from a purely free-marketeer perspective, you're simplifying.

But, there's more. Let's not forget we're talking about the trappings of a right here. No, I'm not suggesting any sort of socialism for gun ownership. What I am saying is, if you really value the right to keep and bear arms as a right (and the preservation thereof), then you will – for selfish reasons if nothing else – not actually advocate a situation where those desiring to get into the exercise and practice of the right are deterred, possibly forever, by prohibitive expense.

When I hear you not just justifying, but advocating, such an outcome, to me it smacks of elitism: all the talk about a right available to all is just that: talk.

My guess is, the big retailers who aren't gouging are looking to the future: quick profits might be had now, but at what cost? Is the cost of a thriving next generation of shooters worth it, just for a few more percent on top, or a bigger stash?

Not if you care about the right. If all you care about if your own ability to keep your guns, and die defending them when government inevitably bans them without a thriving gun culture to oppose that, then go ahead: hoard, and gouge.
 
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ADobbs1989

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As far as Kelly having a right to sue them for cancelling the transaction...is a business EVER required to complete a sale to anyone regardless of the reason? I've never known this to be true given that if the business was already paid they would be required to reimburse the money given. As far as my knowledge goes they could deny the transaction just because of who he is, regardless if it could have been a straw purchase or not.
 

We-the-People

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As far as Kelly having a right to sue them for cancelling the transaction...is a business EVER required to complete a sale to anyone regardless of the reason? I've never known this to be true given that if the business was already paid they would be required to reimburse the money given. As far as my knowledge goes they could deny the transaction just because of who he is, regardless if it could have been a straw purchase or not.

It's not typically seen because litigation is expensive. In this case, it probably won't be litigated because it would be counter to Kelly's agenda of showing how easy it is to buy a gun. However, a contract was breeched and litigation is possible in such an instance.

Be sure to see my IANAL tag line though.
 

eye95

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I don't think a contract was breached.

At any point during a firearms transaction, the seller has the authority and the legal duty to stop the transaction if he has "reason to believe" that the transaction would be unlawful. The instant Kelly indicated that he was not purchasing the firearm for his own use, that sent up a red flag and provided a slam-dunk defense against any claim of breach of contract.

While what Kelly was doing was in a gray area regarding the "actual purchaser" question, that there is any question of legality, any reason to believe the transaction would be illegal, not only may the dealer stop the transaction, to protect his legal butt, he MUST stop the transaction.

IANAL.
 

We-the-People

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I don't think a contract was breached.

At any point during a firearms transaction, the seller has the authority and the legal duty to stop the transaction if he has "reason to believe" that the transaction would be unlawful. The instant Kelly indicated that he was not purchasing the firearm for his own use, that sent up a red flag and provided a slam-dunk defense against any claim of breach of contract.

While what Kelly was doing was in a gray area regarding the "actual purchaser" question, that there is any question of legality, any reason to believe the transaction would be illegal, not only may the dealer stop the transaction, to protect his legal butt, he MUST stop the transaction.

IANAL.

Oh I think the shop is on solid legal ground to defend itself but in technical terms they had a contract and the shop breeched that contract. Their defense would be "we suspected a straw purchase" and would probably be sufficient. Kelly would likely argue it was for a gift. How the court or a jury would decide is anyones guess as it is in the gray area you mention.

Kelly isn't likely to push the issue as it would be counter to his agenda.
 

Aknazer

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Oh I think the shop is on solid legal ground to defend itself but in technical terms they had a contract and the shop breeched that contract. Their defense would be "we suspected a straw purchase" and would probably be sufficient. Kelly would likely argue it was for a gift. How the court or a jury would decide is anyones guess as it is in the gray area you mention.

Kelly isn't likely to push the issue as it would be counter to his agenda.

I don't see him pushing it, but I think it would work for his agenda since if he won he could argue about how messed up the system is and that sellers could be "forced" into selling a gun to someone they don't think should be buying a gun.
 

SFCRetired

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From reading this thread and from my limited (very limited) fund of legal knowledge, I would say that, should Kelly decide to sue the shop for breech of contract, it would largely depend on the judge's political leanings. As I understand (with a nod of the head to eye95) the law, the shop was duty-bound to deny the purchase once it became clear that Kelly was not purchasing the firearm for himself.

Even though he stated he was going to "turn it over to the police", there remains a certain amount of doubt as to his real intentions. Enough so that I believe a neutral court (ha! ha!) would find in the shop's favor.
 
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