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Thread: Should Distrust Of Government Be A Phenomenon Exclusive To Gun Owners?

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    Regular Member Black Dragon's Avatar
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    Should Distrust Of Government Be A Phenomenon Exclusive To Gun Owners?

    There has been a lot of talk in the mainstream media regarding so-called "gun owner paranoia". I examine this phenomenon and make a case for why more Americans should be a little more distrustful of government here.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/shou...-to-gun-owners
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTHunter View Post
    BD - using one of the most heinous examples in recent past is the actions of various "authorities" during the Katrina debaucle, the government has not given us any substantive reason TO trust them.
    Then you add in the multitude of videos such as that cop in Ohio (??) threatening to kill the driver and not lose any sleep over it.
    .
    And those are the best examples they give to offer support to trust them ....

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Common gun owner, and mass media misconception.

    There are plenty of Anarchists (ironically), Socialists (ironically), Communists (ironically), and many other who have a deep distrust for Government. Distrust for Government is common, and seems to accompany the group on the losing end of the previous election.--not always the case, though.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Well, I do trust them .. to try to screw me every chance they get !

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    Regular Member ron73440's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Common gun owner, and mass media misconception.

    There are plenty of Anarchists (ironically), Socialists (ironically), Communists (ironically), and many other who have a deep distrust for Government. Distrust for Government is common, and seems to accompany the group on the losing end of the previous election.--not always the case, though.
    Freedom has been on the losing side of every national election since I started to follow politics when Bill Clinton wasw in office.

    If you disagree name one measure that increased individual freedom and lessened the burden of government on a national level.

    There may be some, but I can't think of any.
    What I told my wife when she said my steel Baby Eagle .45 was heavy, "Heavy is good, heavy is reliable, if it doesn't work you could always hit him with it."-Boris the Blade

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    Quote Originally Posted by ron73440 View Post
    Freedom has been on the losing side of every national election since I started to follow politics when Bill Clinton wasw in office.

    If you disagree name one measure that increased individual freedom and lessened the burden of government on a national level.

    There may be some, but I can't think of any.
    Gvo't cannot make you free-er !

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Common gun owner, and mass media misconception.

    There are plenty of Anarchists (ironically), Socialists (ironically), Communists (ironically), and many other who have a deep distrust for Government. Distrust for Government is common, and seems to accompany the group on the losing end of the previous election.--not always the case, though.
    For whom do those anarchists, socialists, and communists vote into office? They all being liberal, as you are, they are very likely not going to vote for liberty-centric candidates. I have a high level of confidence, that if they do vote, they vote with their liberal anti-liberty and anti-citizen brethren, again, such as yourself.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    The distrust of government is a fundamental pillar of Americanism, quintessential and absolutely a requirement of being American. We see this in our three founding documents and the writings of our Founders so this is not some lame assertion but rather a statement of fact based upon our beginnings and upon those who formed and built this country in its earliest times.

    This means to not distrust government equates to something un-American and altogether foreign to our native concept of a self-governed nation.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    The distrust of government is a fundamental pillar of Americanism, quintessential and absolutely a requirement of being American. We see this in our three founding documents and the writings of our Founders so this is not some lame assertion but rather a statement of fact based upon our beginnings and upon those who formed and built this country in its earliest times.

    This means to not distrust government equates to something un-American and altogether foreign to our native concept of a self-governed nation.
    +1

    Great Article Black Dragon!
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  10. #10
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    <snip> This means to not distrust government equates to something un-American and altogether foreign to our native concept of a self-governed nation.
    Trusting government to perform its constitutional duties is as American as you can get. Distrusting government when "it" tries to expand the definition of "constitutional duties" is as American as you can get.

    Trusting government to perform my duties, as liberals advocate that government must do, for my own good, based solely on the liberal view that only government can do, is un-American. Thus, liberals are un-American.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Should Distrust Of Government Be A Phenomenon Exclusive To Gun Owners?
    It's not. Ever hear of pot smokers? Black people? Native Americans?

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    There are plenty of Anarchists (ironically), Socialists (ironically), Communists (ironically), and many other who have a deep distrust for Government. Distrust for Government is common, and seems to accompany the group on the losing end of the previous election.--not always the case, though.
    Wait, wait.... Help me with this one:

    What, pray tell, is ironic about an anarchist distrusting government?

    You're right about the election thing though. Both sides are every bit as guilty as the other: I didn't hear a peep about lost liberties from the right during Bush II's reign, nor have I heard a peep about lost liberties from the left during Dear Leader's reign.

    This is why I pretty much tune anybody out when they talk about how dumb "liberals" or "conservatives" are. The simple fact that a person has this sort of artificially binary worldview is, in my experience, pretty much a guarantee that they're perpetrators of this tendency.
    Last edited by marshaul; 03-28-2013 at 12:56 PM.

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    Regular Member Alamo Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    For whom do those anarchists, socialists, and communists vote into office? They all being liberal, as you are, they are very likely not going to vote for liberty-centric candidates. I have a high level of confidence, that if they do vote, they vote with their liberal anti-liberty and anti-citizen brethren, again, such as yourself.
    What gives you the impression that Anarchists are liberal, and vote anti-liberty? I would seriously dispute the assertation. Rather, I put forth that Anarchy is the ultimate pro-freedom ideal, where one is free to do as he so chooses and must only suffer the consequenses of any untoward actions by punishment from the offended.

    Anarchy is an unlikely state, as much of the world is too dumb and too attached to their governments, but it's a nice ideal.

    Anything BUT anti-liberty.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Anarchists, in my view, and by their actions, do not respect our constitution while at the same time use it to their own unlawful ends. As a liberty minded individual I will use our republican form of government to affect change within the confines of the law.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Alamo Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Anarchists, in my view, and by their actions, do not respect our constitution while at the same time use it to their own unlawful ends. As a liberty minded individual I will use our republican form of government to affect change within the confines of the law.
    You are basing that on the extremist actions of a few. Just as you could find plenty examples of in Republicans, Democrats, Communists.....

    Anarchy has been seriously slandered by our modern Governments. Most Anarchists, like myself, are quite peaceful. We only seek to be left alone and have no part in a governmental system to which we do not ascribe. Anarchism is a mental state, absent being a physical one. A statist may THINK they have jurisdiction over me, they may SAY they have jurisdiction over me, by LAW they may have jurisdiction over me, but I recognize no man's claim over me.

    As a liberty minded individual I will NOT use YOUR republican form of government to affect change within the confines of the law. The LAW is, by definition, anti-liberty, therefore, I couldn't care less for it.
    Last edited by Alamo Jack; 03-28-2013 at 05:47 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Anarchists, in my view, and by their actions, do not respect our constitution while at the same time use it to their own unlawful ends. As a liberty minded individual I will use our republican form of government to affect change within the confines of the law.
    -1

    I'm an anarchist in my deepest soul, and none of the things you say apply to me at all.

    If we're ever allowed to "opt out" of government's "protection", I'll be the first in line.

    In the meantime, I use only non-aggressive means to advance the cause of liberty.

    Heck, I even vote, although my options are limited as I'm morally incapable of endorsing any aggressive candidate with my vote, which in practice eliminates anyone with a (D) or an (R) after their name.
    Last edited by marshaul; 03-28-2013 at 06:09 PM.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alamo Jack View Post
    You are basing that on the extremist actions of a few. Just as you could find plenty examples of in Republicans, Democrats, Communists.....

    Anarchy has been seriously slandered by our modern Governments. Most Anarchists, like myself, are quite peaceful. We only seek to be left alone and have no part in a governmental system to which we do not ascribe. Anarchism is a mental state, absent being a physical one. A statist may THINK they have jurisdiction over me, they may SAY they have jurisdiction over me, by LAW they may have jurisdiction over me, but I recognize no man's claim over me.

    As a liberty minded individual I will NOT use YOUR republican form of government to affect change within the confines of the law. The LAW is, by definition, anti-liberty, therefore, I couldn't care less for it.
    +1 to you Sir.

    You relegate change of your fellow citizens by your refusal to lend your voice and efforts to affect any change that you deem necessary to return our country to that which the Founders envisioned.

    Liberty demands that I and all liberty minded citizens respect your views and work in our own ways to advance the cause of liberty together.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    -1

    I'm an anarchist in my deepest soul, and none of the things you say apply to me at all.

    If we're ever allowed to "opt out" of government's "protection", I'll be the first in line.

    In the meantime, I use only non-aggressive means to advance the cause of liberty.

    Heck, I even vote, although my options are limited as I'm morally incapable of endorsing any aggressive candidate with my vote, which in practice eliminates anyone with a (D) or an (R) after their name.
    I make no claim to apply to you anything that I deem as a appropriate path to restore liberty. Your path is as valid as is my path.

    +1 to you Sir
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Alamo Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post

    +1 to you Sir.


    +1 to you Sir
    +1 to you, Sir, for being so gracious.

    I participate in politics only so far as to affect change in the hearts and minds of my fellow men. I vote, only as a necessary evil. But I have no use for laws and politicians and courts. IMHO, liberty is all or nothing, and I've too long watched one small step forward be instantly replaced by a rocketship backwards.

    I meant you no personal disrespect in my post, I was simply trying to illustrate my philosophy.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I make no claim to apply to you anything that I deem as a appropriate path to restore liberty. Your path is as valid as is my path.

    +1 to you Sir
    OK, that works for me. Thanks for saying so.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Anarchists ultimate goal is no government at all. The end result of that is it leads to totalitarianism... dictatorship.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4r0VUybeXY

    This is a well done video, describing the primary types of government.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Anarchists ultimate goal is no government at all. The end result of that is it leads to totalitarianism... dictatorship.


    No, that's the end result of having government, as history has shown time, time, time, and time again.

    Get your facts straight.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Alamo Jack's Avatar
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    Should Distrust Of Government Be A Phenomenon Exclusive To Gun Owners?

    Benjamin Franklin said, when asked what he had given them, "A republic, ma'am, if you can keep it."
    And look where we are today.

    Why is a republic easier to maintain than an anarchy? Why is it so bulletproof?

    I contend that an anarchy is easier to maintain if there are enough people who love liberty than a republic with the same number of freedom loving men, because there are no laws to bind them, and no power greater than their own.

    One would do well to research the various aspects of anarchy. For instance, one may enter into a governmental contract voluntarily. There may be a government of some sort, but only if the parties held by it join without duress. What a beautiful society, eh?

    Franklin could as easily have said "An anarchy, ma'am, if you can keep it."

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alamo Jack View Post
    Benjamin Franklin said, when asked what he had given them, "A republic, ma'am, if you can keep it."
    And look where we are today.

    Why is a republic easier to maintain than an anarchy? Why is it so bulletproof?

    I contend that an anarchy is easier to maintain if there are enough people who love liberty than a republic with the same number of freedom loving men, because there are no laws to bind them, and no power greater than their own.

    One would do well to research the various aspects of anarchy. For instance, one may enter into a governmental contract voluntarily. There may be a government of some sort, but only if the parties held by it join without duress. What a beautiful society, eh?

    Franklin could as easily have said "An anarchy, ma'am, if you can keep it."
    "Anarchy leads to dictatorship" is one of these trite concepts which is practically a meme, it's so commonly repeated and so rarely substantiated.

    Of course, it's pretty hard to substantiate something which has A: never happened and B: is a logically non-sequiturious outcome.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Great conversation, and kudos to the gentlemanly way it was conducted!


    When the colonists resisted British rule ( a rule a lot less intrusive than our rule today) they were accused of being "anarchist".

    I am called an anarchist, extremist, confrontational, radical....etc.......they no longer work as pejoratives for me.

    Anarchy-lack of rule (not rules), and it seems like a much better way to run society than what I believe is a one party system masquerading as a two party system. So because I resist their rule and the rise of a police state I am labeled anarchist.....OK.

    Extremist- Yes I am, but this is only because of rampant nationalism placing the state above individual liberty, so yes when someone has moved that far away from liberty I am extreme, but I am not the one who has moved the bar. It's all perspective, because those who love the state, and love Law Enforcement (for the sake of enforcing malum prohibitum laws that restrict individual liberty) are extremist from a free persons point of view.

    Confrontational- Yes I confront what I perceive to be wrong, so did the English colonist, they were not as polite about it as we are. Try standing up for constitutionally protected rights to an officer infringing upon them, I can almost guarantee you their report and testimony in court will be "became confrontational" "uncooperative".

    Radical- again another subjective word, misused and misapplied, the colonists who effected change where radicals, only radicals effect change, Conservatives do not. If we were in a state of freedom now I would be a conservative in the sense I'd want to conserve that, but we are not.

    For me it is important to put these words back in perspective and to fight for them to be recognized for what they are.........a good thing.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member ron73440's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Great conversation, and kudos to the gentlemanly way it was conducted!


    When the colonists resisted British rule ( a rule a lot less intrusive than our rule today) they were accused of being "anarchist".

    I am called an anarchist, extremist, confrontational, radical....etc.......they no longer work as pejoratives for me.

    Anarchy-lack of rule (not rules), and it seems like a much better way to run society than what I believe is a one party system masquerading as a two party system. So because I resist their rule and the rise of a police state I am labeled anarchist.....OK.

    Extremist- Yes I am, but this is only because of rampant nationalism placing the state above individual liberty, so yes when someone has moved that far away from liberty I am extreme, but I am not the one who has moved the bar. It's all perspective, because those who love the state, and love Law Enforcement (for the sake of enforcing malum prohibitum laws that restrict individual liberty) are extremist from a free persons point of view.

    Confrontational- Yes I confront what I perceive to be wrong, so did the English colonist, they were not as polite about it as we are. Try standing up for constitutionally protected rights to an officer infringing upon them, I can almost guarantee you their report and testimony in court will be "became confrontational" "uncooperative".

    Radical- again another subjective word, misused and misapplied, the colonists who effected change where radicals, only radicals effect change, Conservatives do not. If we were in a state of freedom now I would be a conservative in the sense I'd want to conserve that, but we are not.

    For me it is important to put these words back in perspective and to fight for them to be recognized for what they are.........a good thing.
    I feel like James Carville in Old School, "I have no rebuttal, that was perfect."
    What I told my wife when she said my steel Baby Eagle .45 was heavy, "Heavy is good, heavy is reliable, if it doesn't work you could always hit him with it."-Boris the Blade

    MOLON LABE

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