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Thread: CC without a CPL?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Samopal's Avatar
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    Question CC without a CPL?

    Hey everyone. After a brief stint in NY I'm back in Michigan, and my awesome brother promptly gave me a shotgun (Mossberg 500) and handgun (Ruger LCP) as welcome-home gifts.

    My question is: can I CC on private property that isn't my own without a CPL? I tried looking it up but got conflicting opinions. Some people say the laws regarding private property and possession extend to CC, others say you can only CC without a CPL on your own property and place of business as they're the only places explicitly exempted in the law's text.

    For example, I'm at my neighbour's house dogsitting until about 2am today. If I had my LCP could I slip my shirt over it, or would I be committing a crime? It seems silly to me that I need a CPL to conceal a pistol on someone else's private property with their permission.
    You can never be too rich, too good-looking, or too well-armed.

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    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samopal View Post
    Hey everyone. After a brief stint in NY I'm back in Michigan, and my awesome brother promptly gave me a shotgun (Mossberg 500) and handgun (Ruger LCP) as welcome-home gifts.

    My question is: can I CC on private property that isn't my own without a CPL? I tried looking it up but got conflicting opinions. Some people say the laws regarding private property and possession extend to CC, others say you can only CC without a CPL on your own property and place of business as they're the only places explicitly exempted in the law's text.

    For example, I'm at my neighbour's house dogsitting until about 2am today. If I had my LCP could I slip my shirt over it, or would I be committing a crime? It seems silly to me that I need a CPL to conceal a pistol on someone else's private property with their permission.
    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(bg4...me=mcl-750-227

    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  3. #3
    Regular Member Samopal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(bg4...me=mcl-750-227

    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
    How does it make sense that I can CC at my house but not my neighbour's? They're both private property.

    Are you sure the rules regarding private property don't override the CC laws like they do with firearm possession?
    You can never be too rich, too good-looking, or too well-armed.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samopal View Post
    How does it make sense that I can CC at my house but not my neighbour's? They're both private property.

    Are you sure the rules regarding private property don't override the CC laws like they do with firearm possession?
    I am not a lawyer but I have found that laws often do not make sense.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  5. #5
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    ..........
    Last edited by Bikenut; 03-29-2013 at 04:26 PM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Samopal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    I am not a lawyer but I have found that laws often do not make sense.
    Ain't that the truth...

    Oh well, thanks for everyone's help. I emailed the MSP just to be sure but that seems to be the law. I'll be careful not to let my shirt pull up over my gun while I'm lounging around my friend's house; wouldn't want to hurt the state's feelings.
    You can never be too rich, too good-looking, or too well-armed.

  7. #7
    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Samopal View Post
    Ain't that the truth...

    Oh well, thanks for everyone's help. I emailed the MSP just to be sure but that seems to be the law. I'll be careful not to let my shirt pull up over my gun while I'm lounging around my friend's house; wouldn't want to hurt the state's feelings.
    OC is the way to go without CPL.Stupid laws are why we fight to repeal! CARRY ON!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

  8. #8
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    CC without a CPL?

    Quote Originally Posted by Samopal View Post
    Ain't that the truth...

    Oh well, thanks for everyone's help. I emailed the MSP just to be sure but that seems to be the law. I'll be careful not to let my shirt pull up over my gun while I'm lounging around my friend's house; wouldn't want to hurt the state's feelings.
    Emailing cops to get answers about the laws is often a bad idea… The advice you get is often wrong.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Samopal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Emailing cops to get answers about the laws is often a bad idea… The advice you get is often wrong.
    Actually I've emailed the MSP about several things and they're always helpful and spot on. When I asked about the state's knife laws the officer who wrote back to just get a CPL if I wanted a defensive weapon because the gun laws are consistent across the state, while knife laws vary city to city.

    Remember, the MSP are the people who go out of their way sending memos and reminding local police of the OC laws and other gun laws. AFAIK they've done nothing but help us by keeping local LEOs in line.
    You can never be too rich, too good-looking, or too well-armed.

  10. #10
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    CC without a CPL?

    Quote Originally Posted by Samopal View Post
    Actually I've emailed the MSP about several things and they're always helpful and spot on. When I asked about the state's knife laws the officer who wrote back to just get a CPL if I wanted a defensive weapon because the gun laws are consistent across the state, while knife laws vary city to city.

    Remember, the MSP are the people who go out of their way sending memos and reminding local police of the OC laws and other gun laws. AFAIK they've done nothing but help us by keeping local LEOs in line.
    It depends who at the MSP you're asking. Sgt. Aimee -- sure. Anyone else...I can't vouch for.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Samopal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    It depends who at the MSP you're asking. Sgt. Aimee -- sure. Anyone else...I can't vouch for.
    That's who always responds to me.
    You can never be too rich, too good-looking, or too well-armed.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samopal View Post
    they're always helpful and spot on.
    The problem is: what if they're wrong? What if you ask them a question and they completely botch the answer? Who gets arrested, prosecuted, and punished? You do, and you can't go back on them for giving you bad information.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  13. #13
    Regular Member Samopal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    The problem is: what if they're wrong? What if you ask them a question and they completely botch the answer? Who gets arrested, prosecuted, and punished? You do, and you can't go back on them for giving you bad information.

    Bronson
    Every answer is backed up with quotes of the relevant law and the MSP's interpretation of that law. I'd say the email that's a decent defense should something go wrong. After all, if the MSP can't get the interpretation right who can? Do you think a judge is going to punish you for breaking a law so convoluted and confusing even the state police don't understand it?
    You can never be too rich, too good-looking, or too well-armed.

  14. #14
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samopal View Post
    Every answer is backed up with quotes of the relevant law and the MSP's interpretation of that law. I'd say the email that's a decent defense should something go wrong. After all, if the MSP can't get the interpretation right who can? Do you think a judge is going to punish you for breaking a law so convoluted and confusing even the state police don't understand it?

    Absolutely; prison is full of simply misguided children. Seriously, though, no LEO is going to go to bat for you if his advice is not perfect.

    Sgt. Aimee is generally a reliable source of information, however, there is no liability on her end if a judge has a different interpretation of the law as written.

    We've seen actual, sitting judges say that the plain wording of a certain law is ludicrous or ridiculous, or words to that effect (CADL v MOC). Other, more experience judges disagreed, and reversed her ruling, but these things cost money; lots of money.

    Nothing beats your own research, and your comfort & confidence in the legality of your actions. There are no 'get out of jail - free' cards in this game....
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  15. #15
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    CC without a CPL?

    Quote Originally Posted by Samopal View Post
    Every answer is backed up with quotes of the relevant law and the MSP's interpretation of that law. I'd say the email that's a decent defense should something go wrong. After all, if the MSP can't get the interpretation right who can? Do you think a judge is going to punish you for breaking a law so convoluted and confusing even the state police don't understand it?
    Read MSP legal update 86. Then research People v Roger Watkins in Ingham County.

    Answer: yes

    I think the plain letter of the law is clear in your case.
    Last edited by TheQ; 04-01-2013 at 12:44 AM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  16. #16
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: CC without a CPL?

    @OP you've been on this forum since 2008. One thing you should know is: the law is often bent & twisted by those who took a oath to uphold it. The Q was nicely trying to point you to a case where a Judge simply said screw what the law actually says - this is how I see it! It happens more than we would like to know about.

    Get your CPL if possible. Until then know & OBEY the law. Is it really worth getting jammed up? This forum is heavily monitored by LE, I am sure there are one or two hard cases that would love to put the screws to you. Don't give them the chance. Be safe and carry on openly...
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  17. #17
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    @OP you've been on this forum since 2008. One thing you should know is: the law is often bent & twisted by those who took a oath to uphold it. The Q was nicely trying to point you to a case where a Judge simply said screw what the law actually says - this is how I see it! It happens more than we would like to know about.

    Get your CPL if possible. Until then know & OBEY the law. Is it really worth getting jammed up? This forum is heavily monitored by LE, I am sure there are one or two hard cases that would love to put the screws to you. Don't give them the chance. Be safe and carry on openly...
    +1
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  18. #18
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samopal View Post
    How does it make sense that I can CC at my house but not my neighbour's? They're both private property.

    Are you sure the rules regarding private property don't override the CC laws like they do with firearm possession?

    Its all semantics though... If you are staying at your neighbor's house, housesitting, would that house not then be, however temporarily, your 'dwelling house'?

    [NOTE: I didn't say 'it is', I said 'is it?']

  19. #19
    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samopal View Post
    my awesome brother promptly gave me a shotgun (Mossberg 500) and handgun (Ruger LCP) as welcome-home gifts.
    10 Points for me giving away 2/3 of my guns.

    Just man up and open carry with me!
    Molon Labe

    [+=] Eleftheria i thanatos [+=]

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