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Thread: Thousand Foot Rule?

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    Regular Member twoforme's Avatar
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    Thousand Foot Rule?

    New here and am glad that I found this Forum.Have been researching about the 2a.
    My question has to do with at which point is the 1k ft rule measured from.

    Is it from the closest (from my approach) edge of the building
    or is it from the closest (from my approach) at the edge of the grounds that the building occupies.The reason I ask is that I am also new to the OC'ing
    and wish to begin where I am comfortable as a start.Which means walking about my curtilage which could be in the 1k ft rule (even up to my front door possible) ,or walking about parts of my neighborhood which would definitely put me inside the 1k ft. rule.

    I can find out the school property edge from the county but I need to know from which point of reference the 1k ft. measurement is decided.
    Thanks for any information.

  2. #2
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    The answer to your question is:

    (B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.

    The advice you will get if you ask (which is not legal advice, of course, this is the internet after all...) would be that you will drive yourself insane if you try to adhere to the letter of this law.

    Not everyone agrees with my position, but I believe that it is literally impossible for about 99% of the residents of Virginia (who choose to carry a gun, of course) to not break this law. And those 1% that don't are hermits who live deep in the sticks and NEVER come out. It is simply impossible to live a "normal" life and never come within 1,000 feet of any school property.

    The law states that it exempts "individual[s] possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State..."

    A Virginia CHP is not a license to possess a firearm. It simply exempts the holder from the generic law against carrying a concealed handgun. The government would certainly argue that a CHP is "close enough" but why would that be? The law says what it says. They want it to be "good enough", because they want this law to remain valid, so they can use it as a hammer to dictate behavior of law-abiding citizens. If it ever got to a court worth its salt, the law would be thrown out in a heartbeat.

    All IMHO, of course. But seriously, NOBODY who carries a gun can obey this law, to try will simply drive you nuts.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 03-30-2013 at 01:39 AM.

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    Regular Member Curmudgeon's Avatar
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    The definition is:
    (25) The term “school zone” means— (A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or
    (B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.
    Definitions found here: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921

    Your property is exempt:

    18 USC § 922 - Unlawful acts

    q) (1) The Congress finds and declares that—

    (2) (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm— (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
    (iii) that is— (I) not loaded; and
    (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;

    Found here: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922
    While many claim to support the right to keep and bear arms, precious few support the practice.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Welcome to the forum!

    You have you're answer but there is a lot more to it. As TFred said, everyone commits a felony every time they drive past a school.
    The good news is it's a law that IMO can't be enforced.
    The bad news is, the specter of it exists and it could become an issue one day.

    So we are both happy and sad.

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,

    When you think about the federal GFSZ law,
    I want you to think about,,, Vermont!!!
    A resedent of Vermont, Nor anyone else,
    Can have a permit, a license, a permission slip, nor any other kind of State permission paper,
    that would excuse them from the federal GFSZ law,,,
    There is NO!!! exemption available too Anyone, from anywhere!!! from this stupid law, in Vermont!
    Nobody! in Vermont ever gets busted, for carrying a gun near a school in Vermont!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  6. #6
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    The law is not enforced, or at least it has not been to any great degree. Until SCOTUS shifts more to the left the fed gov probably does not want a challenge until of course the court changes. I just don't worry about it, but then that is me, and I would not want you to make decisions based on what I do. In most cases also I am in a vehicle, and I obey all the traffic laws, so I don't get stopped. When I am on the property of business, it is not a problem because the law exempts private property.

    I would not test the waters by OCing on a sidewalk located on school property, that would be poking the bear, IMO. But if I know I am going to be about on public property on foot in a zone I carry cap and ball revolvers, which are not firearms by federal law. No more expensive than a cap and ball revolver is, it is a good investment for certain types of carry like GFSZA. A Remy 58 is very capable sidearm for self defense, as well as the Colt Navy. A Remy though is easier and faster to reload.

    And besides after the SCOTUS ruling referencing federal immigration laws that Arizona cannot enforce them, IMO would mean local and state law enforcement cannot arrest for a federal law solely. They would need a arrest for another crime to arrest, and then turn over to the feds for prosecution of GFSZA. Obama really tied his hands going after the state of Arizona, he made it illegal for locals to enforce federal laws.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 03-30-2013 at 11:40 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoforme View Post
    New here and am glad that I found this Forum.Have been researching about the 2a.
    My question has to do with at which point is the 1k ft rule measured from.

    Is it from the closest (from my approach) edge of the building
    or is it from the closest (from my approach) at the edge of the grounds that the building occupies.
    .
    Point A to Point B with the points being the closest points possible, as the crow flies. How you going to measure this? Unless you are in the middle of farm land...

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    Regular Member JohnM15A's Avatar
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    My home is within the 1,000' limit so I can't carry OC or CC a weapon off my property unless I have a concealed carry permit (VA concealed carry permit owners go through a background check). Is this correct?

    Reference: http://gunowners.org/fs9611.htm

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    Regular Member JohnM15A's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Point A to Point B with the points being the closest points possible, as the crow flies. How you going to measure this? Unless you are in the middle of farm land...
    I have been using Google maps. The map have a distance legend. I just zoom to 1,000' on the legend, hold up a piece of paper to the legend, mark the paper and then use the paper to hold up to the map to measure distance. It's not exact but I will tell you if you are close or not...

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM15A View Post
    My home is within the 1,000' limit so I can't carry OC or CC a weapon off my property unless I have a concealed carry permit (VA concealed carry permit owners go through a background check). Is this correct?

    Reference: http://gunowners.org/fs9611.htm
    I may be mistaken but yes you can while going to and from. Maybe somebody will have the cite handy, it usually takes me a while to dig for it.

    While it has been accepted that a CHP is a "license to do so" it is not court tested, as far as I know. In NC the statutes so far have no wording designating a CHP as a "license to do so". I believe in CO their license actually has wording to that effect.
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    Re: Thousand Foot Rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM15A View Post
    My home is within the 1,000' limit so I can't carry OC or CC a weapon off my property unless I have a concealed carry permit (VA concealed carry permit owners go through a background check). Is this correct?

    Reference: http://gunowners.org/fs9611.htm
    There was a decent discussion just recently on here. I can't link it ATM, because the search function for tapatalk is iffy. It's been in the past 30 days I think.

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Point A to Point B with the points being the closest points possible, as the crow flies. How you going to measure this? Unless you are in the middle of farm land...
    His question was not "how to measure" it was "where to measure from."

    But since you asked, there are several ways to measure distance using Google Maps. This is probably the most reliable one:

    http://support.google.com/maps/bin/a...answer=1628031

    It's an "experimental" tool built into Google Maps themselves. It tells me that I can't drive out of my subdivision (only one way in/out) without passing through an intersection which lies about 700 feet from the edge of a school property... and here is the kicker: To get from that same intersection to the main "entrance" of that school property, I would have to drive a whole mile, because the school fronts a different road altogether, and is not at all visible from the entrance to my subdivision.

    This is easily one of the most heinous laws on the books of the United States. We really need to get rid of it.

    TFred

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    Regular Member JohnM15A's Avatar
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    Thanks Tfred, nice tool. I have read that the VA concealed carry permit is not a "license" as described by the GFSZA law:

    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

    So I'm screwed, I can load the car trunk with a locking container to put the unloaded gun, drive the necessary distance to be outside the zone, pull over, retrieve the gun, load it and put it on my hip. And then do the opposite when returning home. Maybe the risk is worth it though, have not heard of the GFSZA police...

  14. #14
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    You will find, if you ask that most of us are not too concerned with the law, but of course you have to make choices for yourself.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    His question was not "how to measure" it was "where to measure from."

    But since you asked, there are several ways to measure distance using Google Maps. This is probably the most reliable one:

    http://support.google.com/maps/bin/a...answer=1628031

    It's an "experimental" tool built into Google Maps themselves. It tells me that I can't drive out of my subdivision (only one way in/out) without passing through an intersection which lies about 700 feet from the edge of a school property... and here is the kicker: To get from that same intersection to the main "entrance" of that school property, I would have to drive a whole mile, because the school fronts a different road altogether, and is not at all visible from the entrance to my subdivision.

    This is easily one of the most heinous laws on the books of the United States. We really need to get rid of it.

    TFred
    Terrible law ... but is google map given judicial notice? No. Then one would have to prove that the map is accurate ... impossible really.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    but is google map given judicial notice? No. Then one would have to prove that the map is accurate ... impossible really.
    I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM15A View Post
    So I'm screwed.
    No more so than the rest of the gun owners in the state of Virginia. Ask a thousand people (even gun owners) what they think about the GFSZA, and you'll get 995 responses of "What?!?"

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 03-30-2013 at 03:54 PM.

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    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Point A to Point B with the points being the closest points possible, as the crow flies. How you going to measure this? Unless you are in the middle of farm land...
    Well; I frequently walk the dog in a park close to a High School while OCing; I also have a topographic map program with a measurement tool so I measured from the far curb from the school and drew a line 1000 feet from and parallel to the road and noted how far from an intersection the line ran and it's magnetic heading and the fact it touched a shelter house. I the took my military compass and shot the azimuth from that intersection and noted the line did just touched the roof the shelter house and where it ran. Even though I have my CCW I stay on the "safe" side of that line. Here on the western slope of Colorado I have had no problems, but whoa be unto the LEO that messes with me.
    Last edited by F350; 03-30-2013 at 04:27 PM.

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Terrible law ... but is google map given judicial notice? No. Then one would have to prove that the map is accurate ... impossible really.
    I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.
    TFred
    Easiest to just ignore anything he says.

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    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Terrible law ... but is google map given judicial notice? No. Then one would have to prove that the map is accurate ... impossible really.
    Never heard of survey's?

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    You will find, if you ask that most of us are not too concerned with the law, but of course you have to make choices for yourself.
    This!

    If you read my posts on the subject you'll see I usually make fun of people being afraid of the Bogey man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

    If you want to claim that you were >1000 ft away ... then you need to prove your measuring method is accurate .... google map? Good luck with that piece of information ~ would never be admissible in a court of law.

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    Regular Member Numenor's Avatar
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    q) (1) The Congress finds and declares that—

    (2) (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce


    Don't you love how Congress twists the Commerce Clause here to give themselves authority to make this law?

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Numenor View Post
    q) (1) The Congress finds and declares that—

    (2) (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce


    Don't you love how Congress twists the Commerce Clause here to give themselves authority to make this law?
    I won a case based on commerce law, I was charged with interstate transportation without a tax stamp. The judge agreed with me that once a item is received in NC and does not move outside of NC, it is no longer in interstate commerce. I think the question needs to be resolved, just how long does a inanimate object remain in interstate commerce?

    Anyway, a antique firearm is exempt, unless they decide to change it again.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 03-30-2013 at 07:56 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    IMHO.........

    18 USC 922(q) is unconstitutional. The Supreme Court has made that clear in Lopez and has reaffirmed that in their resent Health Care law decision (National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius, 567 U.S. ___ (2012)) explaining the commerce clause. The commerce clause cannot be used to get around the Bill of Rights.

    18 USC 922 dealing with guns in school zones is, as Lopez made clear, not in commerce.

    It is well settled that Congress has broad authority to regulate interstate commerce, but that authority is not unlimited. The Supreme Court stated in Gibbons v. Ogden, 22 U.S. 1, 3, 6 L.Ed. 23 (1824), “The power to regulate commerce is general, and has no limitations but such as are prescribed in the constitution itself.” The principle that Congress’ power to regulate interstate commerce is limited by the Constitution was reiterated in United States v. Lopez, 514 U.S. 549, 552-116 S.Ct. 1624, 131 L.Ed2d 626 (1995), where the Supreme reaffirmed Gibbons with the following statement:

    We start with first principles. The Constitution creates a Federal Government of enumerated powers. See Art. I, § 8. As James Madison wrote: "The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite." The Federalist No. 45, pp. 292-293 (C. Rossiter ed. 1961). This constitutionally mandated division of authority "was adopted by the Framers to ensure protection of our fundamental liberties." Gregory v .Ashcroft, 501 U.S. 452, 458 (1991) (internal quotation marks omitted). "Just as the separation and independence of the coordinate branches of the Federal Government serve to prevent the accumulation of excessive power in any one branch, a healthy balance of power between the States and the Federal Government will reduce the risk of tyranny and abuse from either front." Ibid.
    The Constitution delegates to Congress the power "[t]o regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes." Art. I, § 8, cl. 3. The Court, through Chief Justice Marshall, first defined the nature of Congress' commerce power in Gibbons v.Ogden, 9 Wheat. 1, 189-190 (1824):
    "Commerce, undoubtedly, is traffic, but it is something more: it is intercourse. It describes the commercial intercourse between nations, and parts of nations, in all its branches, and is regulated by prescribing rules for carrying on that intercourse."
    The commerce power "is the power to regulate; that is, to prescribe the rule by which commerce is to be governed. This power, like all others vested in congress, is complete in itself, may be exercised to its utmost extent, and acknowledges no limitations, other than are prescribed in the constitution." Id., at 196. The Gibbons Court, however, acknowledged that limitations on the commerce power are inherent in the very language of the Commerce Clause.
    Again, National Federation of Independent Business v. Selelius, No. 11-393, Slip Opinion, June 28, 2012 confirms the principle that the interstate commerce powers of Congress does in deed have limits.

    Quoting from McCulloch v. Maryland, 17 (4 Wheat) U.S. 316, 405, 4 L.Ed.579 (1819), Chief Justice Roberts stated,
    Quote:
    “The Federal Government ‘is acknowledged by all to be one of enumerated powers.’ Ibid. That is, rather than granting general authority to perform all the conceivable functions of government, the Constitution lists, or enumerates, the Federal Government’s powers.” See page 2 of Slip Opinion.

    Further affirmation of the limitations of Bill of Right on Congress regarding the commerce powers is explained on page 3 of the Slip Opinion.

    “Today, the restrictions on government power foremost in many Americans’ minds are likely to be affirmative prohibitions, such as contained in the Bill of Rights. These affirmative prohibitions come into play, however, only where the Government possesses authority to act in the first place. If no enumerated power authorizes Congress to pass a certain law, that law may not be enacted, even if it would not violate any of the express prohibitions in the Bill of Rights or elsewhere in the Constitution.
    Indeed, the Constitution did not initially include a Bill of Rights at least partly because the Framers felt the enumeration of powers sufficed to restrain the Government. As Alexander Hamilton put it, ‘the Constitution is itself, in every rational sense, and to every useful purpose, A BILL OF RIGHTS.’ The Federalist No. 84, p. 515 (C. Rossiter ed. 1961). And when the Bill of Rights was ratified, it made express what the enumeration of powers necessarily implied: “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution . . . are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” U. S. Const., Amdt. 10. The Federal Government has expanded dramatically over the past two centuries, but it still must show that a constitutional grant of power authorizes each of its actions. See, e.g., United States v. Comstock, 560 U. S. ___ (2010).”
    Congress fixed nothing. Lopez made it clear the commerce clause will not fly under any circumstances.
    United States v. Lopez, 514 U.S. 549.

    Held: The Act exceeds Congress’ Commerce Clause authority. First, although this Court has upheld a wide variety of congressional Acts regulating intrastate economic activity that substantially affected interstate commerce, the possession of a gun in a local school zone is in no sense an economic activity that might, through repetition elsewhere, have such a substantial effect on interstate commerce...
    To uphold the Government’s contention that § 922(q) is justified because firearms possession in a local school zone does indeed substantially affect interstate commerce would require this Court to pile inference upon inference in a manner that would bid fair to convert congressional Commerce Clause authority to a general police power of the sort held only by the States.

    Some will tell you that federal law - 18 USC 922(q) disallows open carry in school zones. And the statute does say that. But, since Congress amended 18 USC 922(q) there has been one court that I know of that has upheld Congresses changes; United States v. Danks, 221 F.3d 1037 (8th Cir. 1999). Its decision is contrary to what Lopez said.

    Hodel v. Virginia Surface Mining & Reclamation Assn., Inc., 452 U.S. 264 (1981), United States v. Lopez, 514 U. S. 549 (1995) and Gonzales v. Raich, 545 U.S. 1 (2005) all made it clear that under the Commerce Clause Congress is required to show a tangible link to commerce, not a mere conceivable rational relation. “[S]imply because Congress may conclude that a particular activity substantially affects interstate commerce does not necessarily make it so.” See Lopez, supra, at 557, n. 2 (quoting Hodel, supra, at 311 (Rehnquist, J., concurring in judgment).

    The Lopez Court made it clear that the Commerce Clause would not carry the day when it comes to carrying a gun in a school zone.

    The possession of a gun in a local school zone is in no sense an economic activity that might, through repetition elsewhere, substantially affect any sort of interstate commerce. Respondent was a local student at a local school; there is no indication that he had recently moved in interstate commerce, and there is no requirement that his possession of the firearm have any concrete tie to interstate commerce.
    To uphold the Government's contentions here, we would have to pile inference upon inference in a manner that would bid fair to convert congressional authority under the Commerce Clause to a general police power of the sort retained by the States. Admittedly, some of our prior cases have taken long steps down that road, giving great deference to congressional action. See supra, at 556-558. The broad language in these opinions has suggested the possibility of additional expansion, but we decline here to proceed any further. To do so would require us to conclude that the Constitution's enumeration of powers does not presuppose something not enumerated, cf. Gibbons v. Ogden, supra, at 195, and that there never will be a distinction between what is truly national and what is truly local, cf. Jones & Laughlin Steel, supra, at 30. This we are unwilling to do.
    I suggest you read Lopez yourself.

    Can anyone cite a federal case where someone has been prosecuted for just carrying a gun in a school zone since the Lopez decision?

  25. #25
    Regular Member twoforme's Avatar
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    Thousand Foot Rule?

    Thanks to all who replied.There may not by a definitive answer(minus a survey)being done. So it basically Buyer,Ocer, Beware.I was just trying to not become caught up in some attempt by an overzealous Leo,if it ever became an issue, while on my own property.
    Thanks

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