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Thousand Foot Rule?

twoforme

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
20
Location
Va.
New here and am glad that I found this Forum.Have been researching about the 2a.
My question has to do with at which point is the 1k ft rule measured from.

Is it from the closest (from my approach) edge of the building
or is it from the closest (from my approach) at the edge of the grounds that the building occupies.The reason I ask is that I am also new to the OC'ing
and wish to begin where I am comfortable as a start.Which means walking about my curtilage which could be in the 1k ft rule (even up to my front door possible) ,or walking about parts of my neighborhood which would definitely put me inside the 1k ft. rule.

I can find out the school property edge from the county but I need to know from which point of reference the 1k ft. measurement is decided.
Thanks for any information.
 

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
The answer to your question is:

(B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.

The advice you will get if you ask (which is not legal advice, of course, this is the internet after all...) would be that you will drive yourself insane if you try to adhere to the letter of this law.

Not everyone agrees with my position, but I believe that it is literally impossible for about 99% of the residents of Virginia (who choose to carry a gun, of course) to not break this law. And those 1% that don't are hermits who live deep in the sticks and NEVER come out. It is simply impossible to live a "normal" life and never come within 1,000 feet of any school property.

The law states that it exempts "individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State..."

A Virginia CHP is not a license to possess a firearm. It simply exempts the holder from the generic law against carrying a concealed handgun. The government would certainly argue that a CHP is "close enough" but why would that be? The law says what it says. They want it to be "good enough", because they want this law to remain valid, so they can use it as a hammer to dictate behavior of law-abiding citizens. If it ever got to a court worth its salt, the law would be thrown out in a heartbeat.

All IMHO, of course. But seriously, NOBODY who carries a gun can obey this law, to try will simply drive you nuts.

TFred
 
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Curmudgeon

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2009
Messages
307
Location
York, Pennsylvania, USA
The definition is:
(25) The term “school zone” means— (A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or
(B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.

Definitions found here: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921

Your property is exempt:

[h=1]18 USC § 922 - Unlawful acts[/h]q) (1) The Congress finds and declares that—

(2) (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm— (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is— (I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;

Found here: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
Welcome to the forum!

You have you're answer but there is a lot more to it. As TFred said, everyone commits a felony every time they drive past a school.
The good news is it's a law that IMO can't be enforced.
The bad news is, the specter of it exists and it could become an issue one day.

So we are both happy and sad.
 

1245A Defender

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2009
Messages
4,365
Location
north mason county, Washington, USA
Well,,,

When you think about the federal GFSZ law,
I want you to think about,,, Vermont!!!
A resedent of Vermont, Nor anyone else,
Can have a permit, a license, a permission slip, nor any other kind of State permission paper,
that would excuse them from the federal GFSZ law,,,
There is NO!!! exemption available too Anyone, from anywhere!!! from this stupid law, in Vermont!
Nobody! in Vermont ever gets busted, for carrying a gun near a school in Vermont!
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
The law is not enforced, or at least it has not been to any great degree. Until SCOTUS shifts more to the left the fed gov probably does not want a challenge until of course the court changes. I just don't worry about it, but then that is me, and I would not want you to make decisions based on what I do. In most cases also I am in a vehicle, and I obey all the traffic laws, so I don't get stopped. When I am on the property of business, it is not a problem because the law exempts private property.

I would not test the waters by OCing on a sidewalk located on school property, that would be poking the bear, IMO. But if I know I am going to be about on public property on foot in a zone I carry cap and ball revolvers, which are not firearms by federal law. No more expensive than a cap and ball revolver is, it is a good investment for certain types of carry like GFSZA. A Remy 58 is very capable sidearm for self defense, as well as the Colt Navy. A Remy though is easier and faster to reload.

And besides after the SCOTUS ruling referencing federal immigration laws that Arizona cannot enforce them, IMO would mean local and state law enforcement cannot arrest for a federal law solely. They would need a arrest for another crime to arrest, and then turn over to the feds for prosecution of GFSZA. Obama really tied his hands going after the state of Arizona, he made it illegal for locals to enforce federal laws.
 
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davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
New here and am glad that I found this Forum.Have been researching about the 2a.
My question has to do with at which point is the 1k ft rule measured from.

Is it from the closest (from my approach) edge of the building
or is it from the closest (from my approach) at the edge of the grounds that the building occupies.
.

Point A to Point B with the points being the closest points possible, as the crow flies. How you going to measure this? Unless you are in the middle of farm land...
 

JohnM15A

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2013
Messages
234
Location
Woodbridge, VA
Point A to Point B with the points being the closest points possible, as the crow flies. How you going to measure this? Unless you are in the middle of farm land...

I have been using Google maps. The map have a distance legend. I just zoom to 1,000' on the legend, hold up a piece of paper to the legend, mark the paper and then use the paper to hold up to the map to measure distance. It's not exact but I will tell you if you are close or not...
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
My home is within the 1,000' limit so I can't carry OC or CC a weapon off my property unless I have a concealed carry permit (VA concealed carry permit owners go through a background check). Is this correct?

Reference: http://gunowners.org/fs9611.htm

I may be mistaken but yes you can while going to and from. Maybe somebody will have the cite handy, it usually takes me a while to dig for it.

While it has been accepted that a CHP is a "license to do so" it is not court tested, as far as I know. In NC the statutes so far have no wording designating a CHP as a "license to do so". I believe in CO their license actually has wording to that effect.
 

mpguy

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Messages
689
Location
Suffolk Virginia
My home is within the 1,000' limit so I can't carry OC or CC a weapon off my property unless I have a concealed carry permit (VA concealed carry permit owners go through a background check). Is this correct?

Reference: http://gunowners.org/fs9611.htm

There was a decent discussion just recently on here. I can't link it ATM, because the search function for tapatalk is iffy. It's been in the past 30 days I think.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
 

TFred

Regular Member
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Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
Point A to Point B with the points being the closest points possible, as the crow flies. How you going to measure this? Unless you are in the middle of farm land...
His question was not "how to measure" it was "where to measure from."

But since you asked, there are several ways to measure distance using Google Maps. This is probably the most reliable one:

http://support.google.com/maps/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=1628031

It's an "experimental" tool built into Google Maps themselves. It tells me that I can't drive out of my subdivision (only one way in/out) without passing through an intersection which lies about 700 feet from the edge of a school property... and here is the kicker: To get from that same intersection to the main "entrance" of that school property, I would have to drive a whole mile, because the school fronts a different road altogether, and is not at all visible from the entrance to my subdivision.

This is easily one of the most heinous laws on the books of the United States. We really need to get rid of it.

TFred
 

JohnM15A

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2013
Messages
234
Location
Woodbridge, VA
Thanks Tfred, nice tool. I have read that the VA concealed carry permit is not a "license" as described by the GFSZA law:

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

So I'm screwed, I can load the car trunk with a locking container to put the unloaded gun, drive the necessary distance to be outside the zone, pull over, retrieve the gun, load it and put it on my hip. And then do the opposite when returning home. Maybe the risk is worth it though, have not heard of the GFSZA police...
 

WalkingWolf

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Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
You will find, if you ask that most of us are not too concerned with the law, but of course you have to make choices for yourself.
 

davidmcbeth

Banned
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Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
His question was not "how to measure" it was "where to measure from."

But since you asked, there are several ways to measure distance using Google Maps. This is probably the most reliable one:

http://support.google.com/maps/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=1628031

It's an "experimental" tool built into Google Maps themselves. It tells me that I can't drive out of my subdivision (only one way in/out) without passing through an intersection which lies about 700 feet from the edge of a school property... and here is the kicker: To get from that same intersection to the main "entrance" of that school property, I would have to drive a whole mile, because the school fronts a different road altogether, and is not at all visible from the entrance to my subdivision.

This is easily one of the most heinous laws on the books of the United States. We really need to get rid of it.

TFred

Terrible law ... but is google map given judicial notice? No. Then one would have to prove that the map is accurate ... impossible really.
 

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
but is google map given judicial notice? No. Then one would have to prove that the map is accurate ... impossible really.
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

So I'm screwed.
No more so than the rest of the gun owners in the state of Virginia. Ask a thousand people (even gun owners) what they think about the GFSZA, and you'll get 995 responses of "What?!?"

TFred
 
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F350

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2012
Messages
941
Location
The High Plains of Wyoming
Point A to Point B with the points being the closest points possible, as the crow flies. How you going to measure this? Unless you are in the middle of farm land...

Well; I frequently walk the dog in a park close to a High School while OCing; I also have a topographic map program with a measurement tool so I measured from the far curb from the school and drew a line 1000 feet from and parallel to the road and noted how far from an intersection the line ran and it's magnetic heading and the fact it touched a shelter house. I the took my military compass and shot the azimuth from that intersection and noted the line did just touched the roof the shelter house and where it ran. Even though I have my CCW I stay on the "safe" side of that line. Here on the western slope of Colorado I have had no problems, but whoa be unto the LEO that messes with me.
 
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peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
You will find, if you ask that most of us are not too concerned with the law, but of course you have to make choices for yourself.

This!

If you read my posts on the subject you'll see I usually make fun of people being afraid of the Bogey man.
 
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