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Thread: WDAM News 7 - Mississippi Open carry law goes into effect July 1

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    WDAM News 7 - Mississippi Open carry law goes into effect July 1

    OCDO co-founder note: The new statute merely clarifies that open carry without a permit is generally legal in Mississippi. There was some confusion over this issue among certain law enforcement officials - not the waters have been de-muddied.

    Carry on!

    --

    http://www.wdam.com/story/21831763/o...-effect-july-1

    SNIP

    JACKSON, MS (Mississippi News Now) -
    Law enforcement agencies around the state are educating their officers on the new open carry weapons law, which is known as House Bill 2. It has been approved by both houses of the Mississippi Legislature and signed by the governor.

    The new law allows any Mississippian, who is not otherwise disqualified, to openly carry a gun, with or without a permit. A permit is still required if the weapon is concealed.

    The author of the legislation Rep. Andy Gipson of Braxton says it simply makes clear what has been the law of the state since the 1890 constitution was approved.

    . . .

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    Lots of questions!

    The passage of the law will really create lots of questions on the part of most of the citizens of the state of Mississippi. I believe that if you qualify for a Firearems Permit, then you will qualify for open carry. No question there.

    The questions will arise from the general citizenry about how to go about the open carry provisions. Without a cursory review of the law pertaining to the Firearms Permit and the enhanced Instructor Course endorsement, most citizens have no idea where one can carry firearms either with a concealed permit or out in the open.

    I would hope that local law enforcement from the municipal PD to the county Sheriff would begin to have informational meetings about open carry. There needs to be a standard protocol for this informational meeting so that all are "reading from the same page of scripture."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyGlockisaRedneck0 View Post
    The passage of the law will really create lots of questions on the part of most of the citizens of the state of Mississippi. I believe that if you qualify for a Firearems Permit, then you will qualify for open carry. No question there.
    Qualify? OCing is a protected right in MS. No qualification necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyGlockisaRedneck0 View Post
    The questions will arise from the general citizenry about how to go about the open carry provisions.
    What are OC provisions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MyGlockisaRedneck0 View Post
    Without a cursory review of the law pertaining to the Firearms Permit and the enhanced Instructor Course endorsement, most citizens have no idea where one can carry firearms either with a concealed permit or out in the open.
    From what I can tell, there are no, and never have been, restrictions on OC. Any restriction would be unconstitutional.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyGlockisaRedneck0 View Post
    I would hope that local law enforcement from the municipal PD to the county Sheriff would begin to have informational meetings about open carry. There needs to be a standard protocol for this informational meeting so that all are "reading from the same page of scripture."
    Yes. Here in Louisiana, Laopencarry.org sent out letters to most jurisdictions in the state with great results. Those in Ms should do the same. I'll donate money for stamps.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    --snipped--
    From what I can tell, there are no, and never have been, restrictions on OC. Any restriction would be unconstitutional.
    Private property, courtrooms, federal buildings, Post Offices, jails & correctional facilities - just guessing off the top of head.
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    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Private property, courtrooms, federal buildings, Post Offices, jails & correctional facilities - just guessing off the top of head.

    Sorry, I meant "state" restrictions.

    Private property is not an issue unless the owner expresses it.

    As far as courtrooms, jails & correctional facilities... I can't find any restrictions. Perhaps I'm missing something and someone can point it out.

    Here's a link to the code search: http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/mscode/

    Edit - I found the restriction for correctional facilities in 47-5-193
    Last edited by georg jetson; 04-02-2013 at 08:12 PM.

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    Firearms Permit Vs Enhanced Carry Permits

    Firearms Permit
    CAN NOT carry in a Courtroom or Law Enforcement Office or detention center.
    CAN NOT carry in Polling Place or meeting of the Government.
    CAN NOT carry at any School, College or Athletic Event.
    CAN NOT carry at establishment or portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises primarily devoted to such purpose
    .
    CAN NOT carry inside the passenger terminal of any airport
    .
    CAN NOT carry in any church or other place of
    worship.
    CAN NOT carry any place prohibited by federal
    law.
    CAN NOT carry where Private Business displays “NO FIREARMS” signage
    CAN NOT carry in Parades where permits are required.

    Enhanced Carry Permit
    CAN NOT carry in courtrooms during a judicial proceeding
    .
    CAN NOT carry in any
    police, sheriff or highway patrol station or any detention facility, prison or jail.
    CAN NOT carry any place prohibited by federal
    law.

    http://safefireshooting.com/MS_Concealed_Carry.html

    I realize that these are not direct statute cites, but they will point someone in the right direction. The difference in the 2 different type of permits is explained in the link.

    A more detailed link w/statute specific cites is found below.

    -http://documents.jdsupra.com/be502b5...5165fd9de5.pdf
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 04-02-2013 at 08:25 PM. Reason: Added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    OCing is not a "permitted" activity. The above restrictions apply to CCing.

    Here's the relevant section of 45-9-101... CC only.

    (13) No license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize any person to carry a stun gun, concealed pistol or revolver into any place of nuisance as defined in Section 95-3-1, Mississippi Code of 1972; any police, sheriff or highway patrol station; any detention facility, prison or jail; any courthouse; any courtroom, except that nothing in this section shall preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his courtroom; any polling place; any meeting place of the governing body of any governmental entity; any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof; any school, college or professional athletic event not related to firearms; any portion of an establishment, licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, that is primarily devoted to dispensing alcoholic beverages; any portion of an establishment in which beer or light wine is consumed on the premises, that is primarily devoted to such purpose; any elementary or secondary school facility; any junior college, community college, college or university facility unless for the purpose of participating in any authorized firearms-related activity; inside the passenger terminal of any airport, except that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal if the firearm is encased for shipment, for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft; any church or other place of worship; or any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law. In addition to the places enumerated in this subsection, the carrying of a stun gun, concealed pistol or revolver may be disallowed in any place in the discretion of the person or entity exercising control over the physical location of such place by the placing of a written notice clearly readable at a distance of not less than ten (10) feet that the "carrying of a pistol or revolver is prohibited." No license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize the participants in a parade or demonstration for which a permit is required to carry a stun gun, concealed pistol or revolver.

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    Rarely do cops and police chiefs, sheriffs etc. know what's in the law as well as some of us on this forum do. Even when they know it, read it, and have been told, they still look for an out, or just have a hard time accepting it. I'm saying a lot of them now, not ALL of them. Here is a reply from a police chief of one of the bigger cities in MS, (not Jackson) that a friend of mine received when asking the chief if the new version of the law cleared up the confusion over open carry: (Names have been omitted because I didn't get explicit permission from either party to re-post)

    Sir,

    This is still being debated as to the intent of the legislation, according to yesterdays reports from the Mississippi Chief’s Association, the open carry (non concealed) was voted on as a section of the concealed carry permit holders. However that is not what was passed and the legislatures are looking at an amendment as I understand it. If I hear of anymore today I will let you know.


    I wish we could avoid it, but there will never be a lack of confusion or misunderstanding, as we will continue to be called by citizen after citizen who see a person armed with a weapon, and we will be left with no choice as officers but to respond to that call and investigate the citizen’s complaint.


    Thanks for your email, and again if I hear of any new developments, I will let you know
    This is so much BS I find it hard to comment on it. It was passed by the senate unanimously, and all but 8 in the house. And they didn't INTEND to pass it? He is saying that nearly 100% of our legislators are so stupid, that they didn't intend to pass a bill that they passed. Not to mention the Governor was stupid enough to sign it.

    The legislators are looking at an amendment. IT IS LAW!! The only way it would be amended is the way it was amended in the first place. This chief needs to brush up on the procedure a little bit. As far as investigating a citizens complaint, they are supposedly obligated to respond, but if the person wearing the gun is not breaking any other laws, then there is nothing to investigate.

    Jetson is right, as I stated in an earlier post, we need to educate the chiefs and sheriffs, and then they need to set policy for their officers as to how to handle an encounter or a freaked out citizens call. By we, I mean everyone with ACCURATE knowledge, not just us on this forum.

    .

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    I find that in most cases, the heads of our different LE agencies are receptive to knowledge presented properly concerning OCing. However, there are always exceptions to that rule. It will be necessary in some jurisdictions to use the courts to enforce our rights. There are a number of things a responsible OCer must do. At the top of the list is training, of course. Training in the law and training with their firearm. Not least on that list is the ability to collect evidence. Never OC without some time of recording device. Inevitably, it's up to the LAC to enforce his/her rights so we need to be as prepared for that as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    OCing is not a "permitted" activity. The above restrictions apply to CCing.

    Here's the relevant section of 45-9-101... CC only.

    (13) No license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize any person to carry a stun gun, concealed pistol or revolver into any place of nuisance as defined in Section 95-3-1, Mississippi Code of 1972; any police, sheriff or highway patrol station; any detention facility, prison or jail; any courthouse; any courtroom, except that nothing in this section shall preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his courtroom; any polling place; any meeting place of the governing body of any governmental entity; any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof; any school, college or professional athletic event not related to firearms; any portion of an establishment, licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, that is primarily devoted to dispensing alcoholic beverages; any portion of an establishment in which beer or light wine is consumed on the premises, that is primarily devoted to such purpose; any elementary or secondary school facility; any junior college, community college, college or university facility unless for the purpose of participating in any authorized firearms-related activity; inside the passenger terminal of any airport, except that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal if the firearm is encased for shipment, for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft; any church or other place of worship; or any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law. In addition to the places enumerated in this subsection, the carrying of a stun gun, concealed pistol or revolver may be disallowed in any place in the discretion of the person or entity exercising control over the physical location of such place by the placing of a written notice clearly readable at a distance of not less than ten (10) feet that the "carrying of a pistol or revolver is prohibited." No license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize the participants in a parade or demonstration for which a permit is required to carry a stun gun, concealed pistol or revolver.
    Sir, YOU can quote the law and YOU can give YOUR interpretation of the law but what happens to ME is of the most utmost concern. I am a former law enforcement officer with about 18 years service, both uniform and Reserve, with the Jackson Police Department. I was one of the first people in the state of Mississippi to obtain the Firearms Permit when that law was passed. At that time, I had THREE different types of authority to carry a firearm--(1) I was a Reserve JPD Officer having transferred from the regular uniformed patrol division after my employment as the Director of Safety and Security for the Jackson Public School District; (2) I had a Weapons Permit as a Security Guard from the State of Mississippi, after completeing the requriements for such, due to my employment by the JPS; and (3) I had a Firearms Permit from the State. "Open" carry has been in question in Mississippi ever since the famous State Supreme Court decision which explained the "concealed" definition by using the piece of clear fishing line to secure the trigger guard of a revolver to the rear view mirror of a car "concealing" that portion of the trigger guard under the knot in the clear fishing line! In addition, any portion of a gun which was "concealed" such as by wearing the gun in a pants waist band/holster, laying it on a car seat, or placing it in the glove box was a basis for being charged with "concealed" carry. This was taught to us by the legal staff of the JPD and I arrested many people for CCW. OBTW, I never lost a case in court or on appeal. That "interpretation" meant that there was no such thing as "open" carry as a part of the weapon was always concealed, until the Firearms Permit Law clarified that description for "concealed" carry.

    I suggest that if you are so certain in YOUR interpretation of the present law pertaining to "open" carry, that YOU bring YOUR weapon, and YOUR lawyer, and enter the Neshoba County Courthouse wearing YOUR weapon. Please come in the north side entrance as the Neshoba County Sheriff's Office is just inside that door to the right. Go in and announce YOUR right to "open" carry under YOUR interpretation of the section pertaining to such in the Constitution of 1890 and see what they do.

    I do agree that we in Mississippi need to make an effort to convince the "powers that be" to provide educational materials for all law enforcement agencies to share with the public concerning the new "open" carry law. I also would be willing to contribute to the costs of the preparation of such materials as I believe strongly enough in the need for such to be willing to pay for a portion of the cost myself.

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    Representative Andy Gipson is the original author of HB2 which will become law on July 1. Here is HIS interpretation of what it means, and he should know since he's the one who wrote it. 100% of Mississippi senators voted for it, and all but 8 representatives voted for it. The bill was designed to clear up confusion, so that no longer could LEO's or courts say well it might mean this or it might mean that.

    And a state law certainly doesn't mean one thing in one part of Mississippi and another thing in a different part of the state.


    Everyone can see for themselves what they think the intent of the law is, as was written by Rep. Gipson, and voted for (almost unanimously) by the state legislature. This is a press release on house letterhead from Rep. Gipson.

    http://cms.nraila.org/media/11163727/mshb2explain.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyGlockisaRedneck0 View Post
    Sir, YOU can quote the law and YOU can give YOUR interpretation of the law but what happens to ME is of the most utmost concern.
    My interpretation? The law is pretty clear. If you're interpreting it differently then perhaps you should re-read it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyGlockisaRedneck0 View Post
    I am a former law enforcement officer with about 18 years service, both uniform and Reserve, with the Jackson Police Department. I was one of the first people in the state of Mississippi to obtain the Firearms Permit when that law was passed. At that time, I had THREE different types of authority to carry a firearm--(1) I was a Reserve JPD Officer having transferred from the regular uniformed patrol division after my employment as the Director of Safety and Security for the Jackson Public School District; (2) I had a Weapons Permit as a Security Guard from the State of Mississippi, after completeing the requriements for such, due to my employment by the JPS; and (3) I had a Firearms Permit from the State. "Open" carry has been in question in Mississippi ever since the famous State Supreme Court decision which explained the "concealed" definition by using the piece of clear fishing line to secure the trigger guard of a revolver to the rear view mirror of a car "concealing" that portion of the trigger guard under the knot in the clear fishing line!
    As has been explained in many threads here in the Ms. forum, that Supreme Court "explanation" was dicta from one judge. It was not part of the court ruling. If you re-read the dicta, you'll find that the judge was actually being sarcastic.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyGlockisaRedneck0 View Post
    In addition, any portion of a gun which was "concealed" such as by wearing the gun in a pants waist band/holster, laying it on a car seat, or placing it in the glove box was a basis for being charged with "concealed" carry. This was taught to us by the legal staff of the JPD and I arrested many people for CCW. OBTW, I never lost a case in court or on appeal. That "interpretation" meant that there was no such thing as "open" carry as a part of the weapon was always concealed, until the Firearms Permit Law clarified that description for "concealed" carry.
    SNIP
    I don't dispute that law enforcement has been misinformed.

    The fact that you never lost a case smells like incompetent/complacent defense attorneys.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyGlockisaRedneck0 View Post
    I do agree that we in Mississippi need to make an effort to convince the "powers that be" to provide educational materials for all law enforcement agencies to share with the public concerning the new "open" carry law. I also would be willing to contribute to the costs of the preparation of such materials as I believe strongly enough in the need for such to be willing to pay for a portion of the cost myself.
    Let's get it done.
    Last edited by georg jetson; 04-10-2013 at 09:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyGlockisaRedneck0 View Post
    Sir, YOU can quote the law and YOU can give YOUR interpretation of the law but what happens to ME is of the most utmost concern. I am a former law enforcement officer with about 18 years service, both uniform and Reserve, with the Jackson Police Department. I was one of the first people in the state of Mississippi to obtain the Firearms Permit when that law was passed. At that time, I had THREE different types of authority to carry a firearm--(1) I was a Reserve JPD Officer having transferred from the regular uniformed patrol division after my employment as the Director of Safety and Security for the Jackson Public School District; (2) I had a Weapons Permit as a Security Guard from the State of Mississippi, after completeing the requriements for such, due to my employment by the JPS; and (3) I had a Firearms Permit from the State. "Open" carry has been in question in Mississippi ever since the famous State Supreme Court decision which explained the "concealed" definition by using the piece of clear fishing line to secure the trigger guard of a revolver to the rear view mirror of a car "concealing" that portion of the trigger guard under the knot in the clear fishing line! In addition, any portion of a gun which was "concealed" such as by wearing the gun in a pants waist band/holster, laying it on a car seat, or placing it in the glove box was a basis for being charged with "concealed" carry. This was taught to us by the legal staff of the JPD and I arrested many people for CCW. OBTW, I never lost a case in court or on appeal. That "interpretation" meant that there was no such thing as "open" carry as a part of the weapon was always concealed, until the Firearms Permit Law clarified that description for "concealed" carry.

    I suggest that if you are so certain in YOUR interpretation of the present law pertaining to "open" carry, that YOU bring YOUR weapon, and YOUR lawyer, and enter the Neshoba County Courthouse wearing YOUR weapon. Please come in the north side entrance as the Neshoba County Sheriff's Office is just inside that door to the right. Go in and announce YOUR right to "open" carry under YOUR interpretation of the section pertaining to such in the Constitution of 1890 and see what they do.

    I do agree that we in Mississippi need to make an effort to convince the "powers that be" to provide educational materials for all law enforcement agencies to share with the public concerning the new "open" carry law. I also would be willing to contribute to the costs of the preparation of such materials as I believe strongly enough in the need for such to be willing to pay for a portion of the cost myself.
    You should be so very proud of your self for arresting those that were simply exercising a right granted to them at birth!

    If you take what some idiotic judge said as "law" then you have a very weak sense of how the law works. The legislature in Mississippi has just clarified the very definition of concealed for everyone in the state, and if you refuse to obey this clarification then perhaps you will one day be on the "wrong side of the law."

    I am a peace officer here in Kentucky, and I uphold my oath and the very definition of my posistion with the highest regard, for the sanctity of peace and for the rights of my fellow Kentuckians! I would NEVER infringe on the rights that we ALL share, like you have so "proudly" done to so many by your own admissions.

    I would NEVER consider openly carrying a firearm in a holster as carrying concealed regardless of what some ignorant judge or justice claimed. I would exercise my right to police discretion and I would NEVER enforce the beliefs of a Supreme Court Justice if I believed it violated the law and/or people's rights! In Mississippi it is very clear that everyone has the right to openly carry firearms and that that right is protected by the Mississippi Constitution. I am fairly certain you SWORE an oath to uphold and defend the Mississippi Constitution, and by arresting people who were exercising a right protected by said Constitution you have violated that oath! You did NOT swear an oath to protect the opinions of a justice, however, you decided to enforce that OPINION anyways.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Chap's Avatar
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    WDAM News 7 - Mississippi Open carry law goes into effect July 1

    Quote Originally Posted by MSRebel54 View Post
    Everyone can see for themselves what they think the intent of the law is, as was written by Rep. Gipson, and voted for (almost unanimously) by the state legislature. This is a press release on house letterhead from Rep. Gipson.

    http://cms.nraila.org/media/11163727/mshb2explain.pdf
    Thanks for the link, pretty clear to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSRebel54 View Post
    Jetson is right, as I stated in an earlier post, we need to educate the chiefs and sheriffs, and then they need to set policy for their officers as to how to handle an encounter or a freaked out citizens call. By we, I mean everyone with ACCURATE knowledge, not just us on this forum.
    Rebel, as I read the response from your police chief, it appears he is laboring under the common misconception that OC must be "allowed" by law. He doesn't realize that the fact that it is not prohibited by law makes it a legal activity. Furthermore, the state cannot prohibit OC because the state constitution specifically limits the legislature to regulating concealed carry.

    I don't know whether Gipson intended that OC be completely unrestricted, but I doubt it. (He doesn't mention it in the poress release you linked to.) To paraphrase P.J. O'Rourke, regardless of the wording of a bill, the Law of Unintended Consequences is always passed. In this case, I think nobody realized until after the Governor's signature that all the restricted places now govern only concealed carry. It wouldn't surprise me if they offer an amendment next session to "fix" that oversight. The big question is whether they have the ability to apply those restrictions to OC under Section 12 of the MS constitution.

    I will definitely be carrying a copy of the revised 45-9-101 (13), with "concealed" highlighted, circled, and underlined when I resume OCing on 1 July, to fend off LEOs with attitudes like MyGlockisaRedneck's.
    Last edited by Eeyore; 04-11-2013 at 05:56 PM.
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    Read?

    In some folks zeal to display their own ideas, my words got twisted and even turned around a little. I will say that YES I am very proud of my record in law enforcement over those many years where I arrested and testified in cases involving everything from murder to overrunning a dog with a motor vehicle. In addition, weak defense attorneys are not the usual type in Jackson as the city has more lawyers per capita than any city in the USA! Or at least it did when I was an LEO in the late 70s-early 90s.

    The Kentucky LEO must be very unaware of the population of the city of Jackson, Mississippi. I worked on the streets and in the public schools. First, thugs on the street who were always stopped for other reasons, remember "probable cause," would often be found in possession of a firearm subsequent to search after arrest. Second, at that time, firearms were prohibited in schools. All my arrests for firearms at schools involved students in possession of a firearm on a school campus. The charges were always subsequent to search after arrest for other charges usually possession of drugs but did include several for discharging the firearms on the campus.

    I have no problem with Second Amendment rights for law abiding citizens. People who break the law while in possession of a firearm should have a heavier penalty.

    Sarcasm at my paraphrasing the words in the old court case and the fishing line story is appropriate but that was the attitude of the state high court for many years and police agencies in the state had no choice but to follow that line of thinking. Or so the Chiefs of the Jackson PD thought so as did the Mayors.

    I am eagerly awaiting July 1 to see how the general populace will react to this final recognition of the Open Carry provision of the state constitution.

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    The Kentucky LEO must be very unaware of the population of the city of Jackson, Mississippi. I worked on the streets and in the public schools. First, thugs on the street who were always stopped for other reasons, remember "probable cause," would often be found in possession of a firearm subsequent to search after arrest. Second, at that time, firearms were prohibited in schools. All my arrests for firearms at schools involved students in possession of a firearm on a school campus. The charges were always subsequent to search after arrest for other charges usually possession of drugs but did include several for discharging the firearms on the campus.
    Just out of curiosity, how many of those thugs and drug heads you arrested were openly carrying their firearm in a properly holstered manner?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eeyore View Post
    Rebel, as I read the response from your police chief,
    Not my Police Chief, a friend of mines. I think mine is going to be a bit more level headed.

    it appears he is laboring under the common misconception that OC must be "allowed" by law. He doesn't realize that the fact that it is not prohibited by law makes it a legal activity. Furthermore, the state cannot prohibit OC because the state constitution specifically limits the legislature to regulating concealed carry.
    Quite correct. I always just took it for granted that everyone knew this. The law doesn't ALLOW me to dye my hair blue, but since there's no law prohibiting dying one's hair blue, should I decide to do that, then I wouldn't be breaking any law.

    I don't know whether Gipson intended that OC be completely unrestricted, but I doubt it.
    I think he just wanted to make the law conform to the 2nd Amendment and the Mississippi Constitution, without any trickery or weasel wording.

    After all, laws aren't SUPPOSED to go outside the boundaries of the Constitution. But that's another post.

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