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Thread: Clerks that don't follow the code

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Clerks that don't follow the code

    I'm going to be in the neighborhood tomorrow so I think I'll try to talk to someone in the Administrative Section of the Supreme Court about the Petersburg, Hanover, Etc, Clerks, not following the procedures for CHP applications, listed in the code.

    It'll be interesting to see if they do have any control over that.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    This may be helpful.

    15.2-1634. Clerks of circuit courts.
    The voters in every county and in each city which has a circuit court, shall elect for a term of eight years, a clerk of such court unless otherwise provided by general law or special act. He shall be clerk of the circuit court and may also be the clerk of the governing body if the governing body so designates. He shall exercise all the powers conferred and perform all the duties imposed upon such officers by general law and may perform such other duties, not inconsistent with his office, as may be requested of him by the governing body.

    15.2-1635. Appointment of deputy when clerk of circuit court unable to perform duties.
    Whenever it is found by the judge of a circuit court that a clerk of such court is, by reason of mental or physical disability, temporarily unable to perform his duties, the judge of the court may, by order entered of record, designate some other person as deputy clerk to perform the duties of such clerk. The person so designated may be the clerk or deputy clerk of another county or city or any other qualified person, and in the event that he is from another county or city, the provisions of 15.2-1525 and 15.2-1534 shall not apply. The person so designated shall thereby become a deputy of the regular clerk and shall be vested with all the authority of a regular clerk and may perform all acts which are required by law to be performed by such clerk with the same effect as if performed by the clerk for whom he serves as deputy, and shall before entering upon his duties take the oath prescribed in 49-1, and furnish bond in the same amount as is required of the clerk. The person so designated shall serve at the pleasure of the court during the disability of the clerk and within the limits of the unexpired term of the clerk. No compensation out of the state or local treasury shall be paid such person designated under this section for his services while acting in such capacity but any expense incurred shall be paid by the county or city in which such service is performed upon the order of the judge of such court.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    This may be helpful.

    15.2-1634. Clerks of circuit courts.
    The voters in every county and in each city which has a circuit court, shall elect for a term of eight years, a clerk of such court unless otherwise provided by general law or special act. He shall be clerk of the circuit court and may also be the clerk of the governing body if the governing body so designates. He shall exercise all the powers conferred and perform all the duties imposed upon such officers by general law and may perform such other duties, not inconsistent with his office, as may be requested of him by the governing body.

    15.2-1635. Appointment of deputy when clerk of circuit court unable to perform duties.
    Whenever it is found by the judge of a circuit court that a clerk of such court is, by reason of mental or physical disability, temporarily unable to perform his duties, the judge of the court may, by order entered of record, designate some other person as deputy clerk to perform the duties of such clerk. The person so designated may be the clerk or deputy clerk of another county or city or any other qualified person, and in the event that he is from another county or city, the provisions of 15.2-1525 and 15.2-1534 shall not apply. The person so designated shall thereby become a deputy of the regular clerk and shall be vested with all the authority of a regular clerk and may perform all acts which are required by law to be performed by such clerk with the same effect as if performed by the clerk for whom he serves as deputy, and shall before entering upon his duties take the oath prescribed in 49-1, and furnish bond in the same amount as is required of the clerk. The person so designated shall serve at the pleasure of the court during the disability of the clerk and within the limits of the unexpired term of the clerk. No compensation out of the state or local treasury shall be paid such person designated under this section for his services while acting in such capacity but any expense incurred shall be paid by the county or city in which such service is performed upon the order of the judge of such court.
    I do not see how that 2nd paragraph/reference (15.2-1635) would effect to this situation at all.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 04-02-2013 at 12:38 AM.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I'm going to be in the neighborhood tomorrow so I think I'll try to talk to someone in the Administrative Section of the Supreme Court about the Petersburg, Hanover, Etc, Clerks, not following the procedures for CHP applications, listed in the code.

    It'll be interesting to see if they do have any control over that.
    hang on there a doggone minute ... doing something positive with reference to a CHP ??????? .. who are you and what have you done with peter nap ?

    or is it just a case of baiting authority taking preference?
    Last edited by scouser; 04-02-2013 at 01:12 AM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    hang on there a doggone minute ... doing something positive with reference to a CHP ??????? .. who are you and what have you done with peter nap ?

    or is it just a case of baiting authority taking preference?
    Peter has no problem with permits/CHPs. Why he is even friends with people that have them.

    They are just not for him and he holds that they should not grant special prividge. I can't completely disagree with that either.

    Yep, that is our Peter Nap using a piece of paper he doesn't like (the CHP) to provide the means to thump a possible errant Clerk of Court. Would not that be poetic?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    All the time we've known each other and you haven't figured it out yet Scouser It does get complicated.

    Let's put it in another perspective.

    You have a CDL because you drive a truck, I don't because I don't need one. I don't drive a truck.
    All is good in the world.

    Now, let's say some idiot says all CDL holders can drive a Bronco better because they took a class in driving a semi and we think they should have special permission to park in handicap spots that aren't being used

    The AAA sees that and asks the General Assembly to allow CDL holders to be able to ride motorcycles without helmets. The CDL has nothing to do with helmets but it's easier to get through the GA because by now, its common knowledge that CDL holders are specially trained to not wear helmets safely.

    The next year the GA considers making anyone that drives anything get a CDL because CDL holders have to consent to searches us mere mortals don't. They know that won't fly so the bill allows CDL holders to drive any speed they wish on highways and at the same time make it a felony for non CDL holders to speed within 1000 feet of a speed limit sign.

    You can get the idea.

    Now back to the real world.
    What the Clerk is doing is a slap in the face to all gun owners. No one is asking anything special, just what the law requires. VCDL is working on the Clerk and possibly litigation. I've suggested many times contacting the Supreme Court and to date, no one has that I know of.

    I'm just practicing what I preach while staying out of the way of others that are working on other approaches.

    This may work or may not. We won't know until it's tried.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I'm going to be in the neighborhood tomorrow so I think I'll try to talk to someone in the Administrative Section of the Supreme Court about the Petersburg, Hanover, Etc, Clerks, not following the procedures for CHP applications, listed in the code.

    It'll be interesting to see if they do have any control over that.

    Thank you much for stepping in to give this a try. If you would when mentioning all those who refuse to follow procedures, include Virginia Beach (they continue to require you to deliver your application at VBPD, and when I got my renewal they shortened the expiration date to the date they processed it rather than to add 5-years onto the expiration date of the current application -- so I lost about three weeks on my permit life).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I do not see how that 2nd paragraph/reference (15.2-1635) would effect to this situation at all.
    In pondering that post I'm wondering if the point was that it could be relevant as absent a given "reason" (mental or physical disability) then it must by default then be considered willful and therefore malfeasance? Meaning that absent a mental or physical disability preventing them from performing their lawfully required duties that they then must be engaging in malfeasance in office (an act that is legally unjustified, harmful, or contrary to law). And if so, then either they claim justifiable reason (mental or physical) so that they can then be legally relieved of duties, or fail to make the claim and perhaps they should be charged with malfeasance.

    2.2-3122. Knowing violation of chapter constitutes malfeasance in office or employment.

    Any person who knowingly violates any of the provisions of this chapter shall be guilty of malfeasance in office or employment. Upon conviction thereof, the judge or jury trying the case, in addition to any other fine or penalty provided by law, may order the forfeiture of such office or employment.

    (1987, Sp. Sess., c. 1, 2.1-639.19; 2001, c. 844.)

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    All the time we've known each other and you haven't figured it out yet Scouser It does get complicated.
    snip ...
    I knew .. just was in the mood last night to yank your chain ..

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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    If you would when mentioning all those who refuse to follow procedures...
    And of course Fairfax County... they are still requiring people submit stamped envelopes, and additional copies of both the application and the training certifications.

    http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/courts/circuit/SP-248.htm

    http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/courts/...CCR-CWP-10.pdf

    A co-worker recently applied for his CHP in FFX... I encouraged him to only submit what was required by law, but he caved in and sent them the additional info. Interestingly enough... when they mailed his permit to him, they didn't even use the stamped envelope that they 'required' him to provide them.

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    And of course Fairfax County... they are still requiring people submit stamped envelopes, and additional copies of both the application and the training certifications.

    http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/courts/circuit/SP-248.htm

    http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/courts/...CCR-CWP-10.pdf

    A co-worker recently applied for his CHP in FFX... I encouraged him to only submit what was required by law, but he caved in and sent them the additional info. Interestingly enough... when they mailed his permit to him, they didn't even use the stamped envelope that they 'required' him to provide them.


    I know what the county says, but if you go there without, the application will be processed and the permit will be issued. That seems to be the big difference between Fairfax and a number of other courts.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tess View Post
    I know what the county says, but if you go there without, the application will be processed and the permit will be issued. That seems to be the big difference between Fairfax and a number of other courts.
    15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.
    A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute......
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tess View Post
    I know what the county says, but if you go there without, the application will be processed and the permit will be issued. That seems to be the big difference between Fairfax and a number of other courts.
    Thats good to hear. That was exactly what I was hoping my co-worker would find out... if they would actually deny him based on not submitting the 'extra' items, or if they would still process it. Ultimately he didn't want to be a 'test case'... lol

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    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    I mailed my CHP application to Fauquier Co. on Friday, they got it yesterday. Left a message on my home phone saying they needed a copy of my driver's license. I called them, they said they needed it, I said they didn't, and they said OK... We'll see if/when I get my new permit.

    Roscoe
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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    Prince William County

    Prince William County requires you to provide a SASE or pay for a stamp from them. They also charge $2-$3 extra if you pay with plastic.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defrock View Post
    Prince William County requires you to provide a SASE or pay for a stamp from them. They also charge $2-$3 extra if you pay with plastic.
    That is totally in violation of the Code.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defrock View Post
    Prince William County requires you to provide a SASE or pay for a stamp from them. They also charge $2-$3 extra if you pay with plastic.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    That is totally in violation of the Code.
    Hmmm - being the devil's advocate, I wonder if a "transaction fee" would in fact be illegal. I think that it might be found to NOT be a part of the allowable by statute fee, if the municipality charged such a fee for all credit/debit transactions. Now if it is being added especially/only to the CHP process then it becomes distinctly extra-legal.

    If the city/county charged for on-site parking, that would not be an illegal fee for someone applying for their permit......unless they only charged CHP applicants.

    Personally I despise the extra charge for using plastic. There are advantages to be found on both sides of the counter. Some have called such add-ons nuisance fees, designed primarily to increase the bottom line incrementally in small doses.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defrock View Post
    They also charge $2-$3 extra if you pay with plastic.
    Fauquier Co. doesn't allow you to pay for a CHP application with a credit card...

    Roscoe
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Just a quick update. Nothing is settled yet but I have a foot in the door now.
    She had meetings most of the day and I was in the Supreme Court's hearing room....so we didn't get much time to discuss it.

    I actually discussed with three different departments and so far they all thought it was an administrative issue that the Executive Secretary's office could correct.

    I'll get back on it tomorrow,

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roscoe13 View Post
    Fauquier Co. doesn't allow you to pay for a CHP application with a credit card...

    Roscoe
    But do they allow one to pay by a personal promissory note?
    http://promissorynotes.uslegal.com/

    Further, if such were to bounce, I'm sure they would legally charge a healthy penalty which I am positive is not in delineated in 18.2-308
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roscoe13 View Post
    I mailed my CHP application to Fauquier Co. on Friday, they got it yesterday. Left a message on my home phone saying they needed a copy of my driver's license. I called them, they said they needed it, I said they didn't, and they said OK... We'll see if/when I get my new permit.

    Roscoe
    It's real simple: Ask them to show you where in the code it requires you to submit, or even display any photo ID. Then show THEM in the code where it is ILLEGAL for them to even ASK you for something that is not required by the procedure in the code!

    TFred

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    It's real simple: Ask them to show you where in the code it requires you to submit, or even display any photo ID. Then show THEM in the code where it is ILLEGAL for them to even ASK you for something that is not required by the procedure in the code!

    TFred
    Very much want some teeth in these codes!

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    It's real simple: Ask them to show you where in the code it requires you to submit, or even display any photo ID. Then show THEM in the code where it is ILLEGAL for them to even ASK you for something that is not required by the procedure in the code!

    TFred
    I encountered the same "requirement" when I renewed. The reason given was that they "wanted to be sure I was whom I said I was". When I pointed out that I was renewing by mail, they backed off. In retrospect, I think that they are expecting the applicant to also require that the clerk notarize the application at the time of submission, thus the requirement for a photo ID. If you hand them an already notarized form, then the ID issue is moot. Don't know if anyone mails in an un-notarized form, though.

    This could be a case of the personnel in the Clerk's office just trying to be helpful, i.e. if you present them with a "complete (sans notarization)" application, they'll be performing the needed service for you if you provide the necessary documentation. Based on my conversations with both 1st time applicants and Clerk's office personnel, there appears to have been a number of said applicants who walked in with the their form filled out, but it was the old version (prior to 7/2012), obtained as part of a packet at a CHP class. I'm guessing that that issue has filtered itself out by now.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    And of course Fairfax County... they are still requiring people submit stamped envelopes, and additional copies of both the application and the training certifications.
    ...
    A co-worker recently applied for his CHP in FFX... I encouraged him to only submit what was required by law, but he caved in and sent them the additional info. Interestingly enough... when they mailed his permit to him, they didn't even use the stamped envelope that they 'required' him to provide them.
    Did that to me last fall.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    It's real simple: Ask them to show you where in the code it requires you to submit, or even display any photo ID. Then show THEM in the code where it is ILLEGAL for them to even ASK you for something that is not required by the procedure in the code!

    TFred
    Its not in the Code....but.....

    There's a higher court decision regarding Arlington (I believe) where the court can require you to show documentation proving that you live where you say that you live....but they shouldn't need a copy of it.
    James Reynolds

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