Clerks that don't follow the code

TFred · Apr 2, 2013

roscoe13 said:
I mailed my CHP application to Fauquier Co. on Friday, they got it yesterday. Left a message on my home phone saying they needed a copy of my driver's license. I called them, they said they needed it, I said they didn't, and they said OK... We'll see if/when I get my new permit.

Roscoe

It's real simple: Ask them to show you where in the code it requires you to submit, or even display any photo ID. Then show THEM in the code where it is ILLEGAL for them to even ASK you for something that is not required by the procedure in the code!

TFred

Grapeshot · Apr 2, 2013

TFred said:
It's real simple: Ask them to show you where in the code it requires you to submit, or even display any photo ID. Then show THEM in the code where it is ILLEGAL for them to even ASK you for something that is not required by the procedure in the code!

TFred

Very much want some teeth in these codes!

2a4all · Apr 2, 2013

TFred said:
It's real simple: Ask them to show you where in the code it requires you to submit, or even display any photo ID. Then show THEM in the code where it is ILLEGAL for them to even ASK you for something that is not required by the procedure in the code!

TFred

I encountered the same "requirement" when I renewed. The reason given was that they "wanted to be sure I was whom I said I was". When I pointed out that I was renewing by mail, they backed off. In retrospect, I think that they are expecting the applicant to also require that the clerk notarize the application at the time of submission, thus the requirement for a photo ID. If you hand them an already notarized form, then the ID issue is moot. Don't know if anyone mails in an un-notarized form, though.

This could be a case of the personnel in the Clerk's office just trying to be helpful, i.e. if you present them with a "complete (sans notarization)" application, they'll be performing the needed service for you if you provide the necessary documentation. Based on my conversations with both 1st time applicants and Clerk's office personnel, there appears to have been a number of said applicants who walked in with the their form filled out, but it was the old version (prior to 7/2012), obtained as part of a packet at a CHP class. I'm guessing that that issue has filtered itself out by now.

3fgburner · Apr 2, 2013

Blk97F150 said:
And of course Fairfax County... they are still requiring people submit stamped envelopes, and additional copies of both the application and the training certifications.
...
A co-worker recently applied for his CHP in FFX... I encouraged him to only submit what was required by law, but he caved in and sent them the additional info. :banghead: Interestingly enough... when they mailed his permit to him, they didn't even use the stamped envelope that they 'required' him to provide them.

Did that to me last fall.

ProShooter · Apr 2, 2013

TFred said:
It's real simple: Ask them to show you where in the code it requires you to submit, or even display any photo ID. Then show THEM in the code where it is ILLEGAL for them to even ASK you for something that is not required by the procedure in the code!

TFred

Its not in the Code....but.....

There's a higher court decision regarding Arlington (I believe) where the court can require you to show documentation proving that you live where you say that you live....but they shouldn't need a copy of it.

johnfenter · Apr 2, 2013

Think VB is fixed....

drdan01 said:
Thank you much for stepping in to give this a try. If you would when mentioning all those who refuse to follow procedures, include Virginia Beach (they continue to require you to deliver your application at VBPD, and when I got my renewal they shortened the expiration date to the date they processed it rather than to add 5-years onto the expiration date of the current application -- so I lost about three weeks on my permit life).

This is what I did; I wrote the VBPD asking why their clerk was demanding 2 forms of ID when CHP applications were dropped off, and why they were being dropped off at the PD when the statute says to drop it at the Clerk of the Circuit Court. Hem, haw, harrumph. Then I got City Councilman Bill DeSteph involved. Now the answer is that the clerks at the PD have been re-trained to only ask for ID if they will act as the Notary, there is now a Memorandum of Agreement between the Clerk and the PD making the PD an "agent" of the court for accepting CHP applications, and VB residents can drop off their applications at either place, whichever is more convenient for them. In my opinion, the PD is more convenient; no metal detectors, no disarming, just a quick in and out. CHP turnaround time in VB has consistently been about 2 weeks. Now, I'm waiting for answers from the PD and School Board on why ammunition and knives with blades shorter than 3'' are banned at high school sports events and graduations...

builtjeep · Apr 2, 2013

peter nap said:
I've suggested many times contacting the Supreme Court and to date, no one has that I know of.

Actually Peter, I ended up sending a letter to the chief justice the last time Petersburg pulled this, though it was after going through the police dept bs (didn't know it was illegal at the time), they had gone well past the 45 day limit, and the clerk held that his 45 days did not start until after he got the background check/application from the police dept.

I relieved a return letter from the justice's office saying he would be contacting the clerk, and the next day the clerk called to say that my permit was ready. This is why I had assumed that they fixed things, clearly they didn't take whatever he said seriously.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

peter nap · Apr 2, 2013

builtjeep said:
Actually Peter, I ended up sending a letter to the chief justice the last time Petersburg pulled this, though it was after going through the police dept bs (didn't know it was illegal at the time), they had gone well past the 45 day limit, and the clerk held that his 45 days did not start until after he got the background check/application from the police dept.

I relieved a return letter from the justice's office saying he would be contacting the clerk, and the next day the clerk called to say that my permit was ready. This is why I had assumed that they fixed things, clearly they didn't take whatever he said seriously.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

I stand corrected builtjeep. Good job. What I'm hoping for is for the Administrative section to establish a policy decision for Petersburg. When that falls, it's an easy matter to use the same policy for any Clerk in Violation.

TFred · Apr 3, 2013

ProShooter said:
Its not in the Code....but.....

There's a higher court decision regarding Arlington (I believe) where the court can require you to show documentation proving that you live where you say that you live....but they shouldn't need a copy of it.

Interesting. I wonder if that court decision was before or after they added this to the code:

"No information or documentation other than that which is allowed on the application in accordance with this subsection may be requested or required by the clerk or the court."

Starts on Line #6 of Paragraph D. of 18.2-308.

Seems to me that if the application doesn't specifically call for proof of address, they aren't allowed to ask for it, with this addition to the code. This change was added last year, so went into effect July 1, 2012.

TFred

Glockster · Apr 3, 2013

johnfenter said:
This is what I did; I wrote the VBPD asking why their clerk was demanding 2 forms of ID when CHP applications were dropped off, and why they were being dropped off at the PD when the statute says to drop it at the Clerk of the Circuit Court. Hem, haw, harrumph. Then I got City Councilman Bill DeSteph involved. Now the answer is that the clerks at the PD have been re-trained to only ask for ID if they will act as the Notary, there is now a Memorandum of Agreement between the Clerk and the PD making the PD an "agent" of the court for accepting CHP applications, and VB residents can drop off their applications at either place, whichever is more convenient for them. In my opinion, the PD is more convenient; no metal detectors, no disarming, just a quick in and out. CHP turnaround time in VB has consistently been about 2 weeks. Now, I'm waiting for answers from the PD and School Board on why ammunition and knives with blades shorter than 3'' are banned at high school sports events and graduations...

That's great John! And I see that they have updated the web site accordingly:

Persons may apply at the Circuit Court Clerk's Office, Building 10, 3rd Floor, 2425 Nimmo Parkway (757) 385-4186 or the Virginia Beach Police Department, 2509 Princess Anne Road, Support Division - Records Unit, Building 11 at the Virginia Beach Municipal Center

I assume that you didn't have the opportunity to ask (and you might not have known about it at the time) why they were applying the renewal date period from the date they approved a renewal (vs. adding 5 years onto the existing permit date)?

But this is great news, now eliminating one of the two 2A related gripes that I have had about VABH (the other being the stop and ID law that they seem to believe that they have authority to have in place).

OC for ME · Apr 3, 2013

Remember, bureaucrats really really do not like citizens attempting to penetrate the bureaucracy.

Glockster · Apr 3, 2013

OC for ME said:
Remember, bureaucrats really really do not like citizens attempting to penetrate the bureaucracy.

However, the thing to keep in mind is that the Court Clerk is NOT a bureaucrat (as a bureaucracy is a group of non-elected officials) as at least here in VA, they are elected officials. Which makes them accountable.

To that point, one thing that I think needs to happen is that WE start tracking Court Clerks. VDCL does have their election related information but I don't recall seeing Court Clerks on the list and think that something like that would be useful for VCDL to either add to their list, or for us to have a running spreadsheet thing, like with municipalities that have have muni codes that are preempted. They refuse to comply (like some of the ones discussed here and in other threads), or want to simply add nonsense to the process, then they should be identified and targeted as a Court Clerk that needs to be voted out of office during the next "correction period" (election).

TFred · Apr 3, 2013

peter nap said:
I stand corrected builtjeep. Good job. What I'm hoping for is for the Administrative section to establish a policy decision for Petersburg. When that falls, it's an easy matter to use the same policy for any Clerk in Violation.

Peter, I really hope this works out. It should be a simple request to ask them to send out the policy notification to a clerk who is observed misbehaving. I guess you just need to find the right hammer. Hope this is it!

TFred

roscoe13 · Apr 10, 2013

roscoe13 said:
I mailed my CHP application to Fauquier Co. on Friday, they got it yesterday. Left a message on my home phone saying they needed a copy of my driver's license. I called them, they said they needed it, I said they didn't, and they said OK... We'll see if/when I get my new permit.

Roscoe

Got the permit today. A mere 12 calendar days after I mailed the application. They got off to a rough start, but they got it right, and fast, in the end...

Roscoe

peter nap · Apr 10, 2013

TFred said:
Peter, I really hope this works out. It should be a simple request to ask them to send out the policy notification to a clerk who is observed misbehaving. I guess you just need to find the right hammer. Hope this is it!

TFred

It looks like it will TFred.

cyras21 · Apr 11, 2013

I'm applying for my renewal and the clerk is asking for a copy of my current permit and a SASE to send notification when I can pick it up. I couldn't find any of this in the code or State Police website. Is this SOP?

builtjeep · Apr 11, 2013

In some areas it is SOP, but that doesn't mean it's legal. The SASE is most definitely not legal. There has been some debate whether asking for a copy of the current permit is permissible. I side with it being an extra-legal requirement, but there are those with more legal experience than I who say it may be legal.

To paraphrase another member, "I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, and it is worth exactly what you have paid for it."

Grapeshot · Apr 11, 2013

Mail your renewal in to the Clerk already notarized and with all of "i's" dotted and all "t's" crossed, but nothing not delineated in the statute.................bet you get a new permit by return mail.

peter nap · Apr 11, 2013

Grapeshot said:
Mail your renewal in to the Clerk already notarized and with all of "i's" dotted and all "t's" crossed, but nothing not delineated in the statute.................bet you get a new permit by return mail.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to send it Certified Return Receipt. That could possibly be your filing.

mobeewan · Apr 13, 2013

cyras21 said:
I'm applying for my renewal and the clerk is asking for a copy of my current permit and a SASE to send notification when I can pick it up. I couldn't find any of this in the code or State Police website. Is this SOP?

All extra legal requirements. They do not need a copy of your existing permit since there is a record of it. The court should have a case file in your name. Each time I have been to the CoC office in Hampton to renew they pull my file. I have never had to show my current permit. They used to require me to fill out a second copy they send over to the police. I refused the last time even when they copied the one I turned in and wanted me to sign it. I stood my ground was firm but respectful with the CoC and I still got my new permit. I did have to get them to reissue the new permit with the concurrent in lieu of overlapping dates.

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