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Thread: self defense in a mob situation?

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    self defense in a mob situation?

    http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot....ike-again.html

    So, almost none of the "activities" rose to the standard for self defense using deadly force: fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury.

    So, how do you defend yourself in such a situation? (Let's make it easy and pretend it happened somewhere besides Chicago, so legal options besides "Roll over, show your belly and get eaten alive" are possible.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    #1. Most of us are fairly bright enough to know where such mobs are likely. (Not to mention the places where self defense is "illegal.")
    #2. Most of us are, therefore, smart enough to know it's not likely a good place to go and will stay away.
    #3. If, for some unavoidable reason, one were to find themselves confronted with a dangerous situation like this, I'd think situational awareness would allow us to notice problems from the very start and make tracks to leave or find cover.
    #4. If one could not leave, and a potentially lethal attack began (remember, you don't have any obligation to read their minds), one would have to take whatever steps were necessary to stop as many of the attackers as possible. Unless there were hundreds of them, whipped to an insane rage, sight of the first few to fall would probably end the encounter.

    Ultimately, there are no guarantees. We just do the best we can with what we have to work with.

    The best gunfight is the one that never happened... so just don't go there. Anyway, that's my plan.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

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    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MamaLiberty View Post
    #1. Most of us are fairly bright enough to know where such mobs are likely. (Not to mention the places where self defense is "illegal.")
    #2. Most of us are, therefore, smart enough to know it's not likely a good place to go and will stay away.
    #3. If, for some unavoidable reason, one were to find themselves confronted with a dangerous situation like this, I'd think situational awareness would allow us to notice problems from the very start and make tracks to leave or find cover.
    #4. If one could not leave, and a potentially lethal attack began (remember, you don't have any obligation to read their minds), one would have to take whatever steps were necessary to stop as many of the attackers as possible. Unless there were hundreds of them, whipped to an insane rage, sight of the first few to fall would probably end the encounter.

    Ultimately, there are no guarantees. We just do the best we can with what we have to work with.

    The best gunfight is the one that never happened... so just don't go there. Anyway, that's my plan.
    Not bad; you were wrong on only 3 out of 4 of your points.

    There was a mob attack in Kansas City MO when I lived out there; The Kansas City Power & Light District is one of the trendiest, most fashionable and expensive entertainment districts in the area. One night "urban youth" hit the district from every direction, there was no "situational awareness" that could helped you avoid trouble, no where to run to get away, they were on top of the customers of the district before anyone knew it. You can't always avoit IT; and IT doesn't always happen in the "bad areas".

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    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    Not bad; you were wrong on only 3 out of 4 of your points.

    There was a mob attack in Kansas City MO when I lived out there; The Kansas City Power & Light District is one of the trendiest, most fashionable and expensive entertainment districts in the area. One night "urban youth" hit the district from every direction, there was no "situational awareness" that could helped you avoid trouble, no where to run to get away, they were on top of the customers of the district before anyone knew it. You can't always avoit IT; and IT doesn't always happen in the "bad areas".
    You seem to have conveniently skipped most of what I wrote.
    If your situational awareness is good, you will have early warning and be able to at least find cover.
    IF you cannot get away, and the attack is imminent and potentially lethal, you do what you have to do to defend yourself.

    And, last but not least, there are no guarantees. **** happens.

    The bottom line for me, however, is that I do not... and would not... live in Kansas city or any other city. We each have to make our choices and take our chances.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot....ike-again.html

    So, almost none of the "activities" rose to the standard for self defense using deadly force: fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury.

    So, how do you defend yourself in such a situation? (Let's make it easy and pretend it happened somewhere besides Chicago, so legal options besides "Roll over, show your belly and get eaten alive" are possible.

    stay safe.
    I wonder. The write-up included that shoppers were robbed. Strong-arm robbery can include getting bashed in the face and breaking the eye-socket bone, or getting knocked down and a rib broken from a kick.

    Any who haven't should watch Mas Ayoobs video about justified deadly force. Its on youtube now. He spends a little time on beatings and how they can rise to "serious bodily injury."
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    This was in Chicago Illinois, the victims did not have the tools of self defense, so we will probably never know.
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    Just because some one dosen't have a weapon doesn't mean that they can not commit great bodly harm or kill you.

    A lot depends on the situation. If confronted by a group of people that made threats and wanted to rob me.

    I would consider useing my firearm in selfdefense.

    I know of a couple of cases where people died because of one punch or blow to the head.

    I will not be beaten I will do what it takes to stop the attack.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Just because some one dosen't have a weapon doesn't mean that they can not commit great bodly harm or kill you.

    A lot depends on the situation. If confronted by a group of people that made threats and wanted to rob me.

    I would consider useing my firearm in selfdefense.

    I know of a couple of cases where people died because of one punch or blow to the head.

    I will not be beaten I will do what it takes to stop the attack.
    I agree, unfortunately Il does not allow that option.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    This was in Chicago Illinois, the victims did not have the tools of self defense, so we will probably never know.
    Ther are legal things that can be used to defend ones self. There are very soild made canes out there don't you know I have bad knee, a good size long shackled padlock with a strong nylon strap attached makes a heck of a impact weapon I have to lock my stuff up you know.

    imagination folks

    One does not have to be weaponless if you can think.
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    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    I agree that even with good situational awareness, a peaceful crowd a block away that is out of your sight can become a trampling herd of idiots.

    That group, with a few criminal types among them, can overrun/overtake you and your area and or group before you can start moving.

    If the criminal types see an opportunity to do a smash & grab, they'll take it. It might be smashing a car window and grabbing a GPS, it might be smashing a store window and grabbing the merchandise on display, or it might be smashing your face and grabbing your purse.

    You can only HOPE you have time to react.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Just because some one dosen't have a weapon doesn't mean that they can not commit great bodly harm or kill you.

    A lot depends on the situation. If confronted by a group of people that made threats and wanted to rob me.

    I would consider useing my firearm in selfdefense.

    I know of a couple of cases where people died because of one punch or blow to the head.

    I will not be beaten I will do what it takes to stop the attack.
    Many, perhaps most jurisdictions consider a disparity of force situation to justify deadly force and set the standard at 3 individuals whether armed or not, as well as the 21 foot rule for knives, clubs etc.

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    Be careful on what you advise using in lieu of a firearm. You could very probably get by with using a stout cane. I would be very leery of using a padlock on a tether as advised.

    For the record, I picked up several very stout canes when I was in Egypt. Any one of them would, if used as other than a walking stick, cause quite a bit of damage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    Be careful on what you advise using in lieu of a firearm. You could very probably get by with using a stout cane. I would be very leery of using a padlock on a tether as advised.

    For the record, I picked up several very stout canes when I was in Egypt. Any one of them would, if used as other than a walking stick, cause quite a bit of damage.
    There are a couple problems with this, we are talking a crowd, and the ability of the person with a cane. Not everybody, and probably most people cannot effectively defend themselves from a mob with a cane or mall type device. Probably in most cases the device would be ended up used on the victim. Not saying these are outside options, just in this case we are talking about a mob.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Well since this happened in Chicago firearms don't come into play...

    But I reject skids argument, a mob of people is "disparity of force" therefore deadly force is justified. at least in my state the law is

    Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

    (1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his or her presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

    (2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his or her presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he or she is.
    so Actually I think I'd be good in terms of using a gun for self defense in that scenario.

    I also have all of Mas Ayoob's columns, including those dealing with mob attacks, I always make sure to highlight and dog ear the pages, I'm getting Mas Ayoob's book on deadly force soon, when I get it I will highlight passages and dog ear pages when I get as I read it. That is so that I can show if I'm charged or sued that this is the material I've read and that this is accepted instruction and that the author has been recognized as an expert in court cases before, therefore my material indicates I've researched material from competent professionals and can (hopefully) help document what I knew when I fired. Disparity of force is once such concept I've studied greatly....
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    Re: self defense in a mob situation?

    Claymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    There are a couple problems with this, we are talking a crowd, and the ability of the person with a cane. Not everybody, and probably most people cannot effectively defend themselves from a mob with a cane or mall type device. Probably in most cases the device would be ended up used on the victim. Not saying these are outside options, just in this case we are talking about a mob.
    The same goes for a firearm there are firearm owners out there I would not trust to defend themselfs with a firearm.

    Ones ability and skill to defends ones self with any weapon comes into play in any selfdefense situation.

    Don't we hear the same BS from the anti firearm crowd that your gun will most likley be take from you and use against you.

    When it comes to being armed with some type of weapon or being beat down with no weapon I'll take a improvise one any time.
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    Can you say HIGH CAP MAGAZINE...The Mob possibility is a great reason why these magazines shouldn't be outlawed. And the lady with the 6 gun shot 6 times hit the guy 5, and he was able to try and get away...Outnumbered and the mob in a frenzy, there is no doubt the use of a firearm in any state. I'd rather get a charge of having the gun in Chicago than be dead. Period. A jury of your peers would at least see it your way. Probably be found not guilty on the 4 counts of homicide,a nd get a gun violation...Luckily, in VA, I think we'd be pretty sweet with the need to use the gun...
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    A few of you have picked up that since the actual event took place in Chicago the use of a firearm would not be an option. Some of you have generalized from the specific location to places where the restriction against firearms would not be in play. All get points for that.

    Those citing disparity of force issues seem to have fallen into a mind trap of presuming that all of the members of the mob, or a significant portion of the members of the mob, would be attacking a single individual. There were a few such incidents in the scenario presented, but it was not the general rule. Actually, those situations where multiple attackers were involved were all threats, not actual assaults. http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2013/03/...wilding-scene/

    But I'll get past that for the moment and ask this - how many of you practice the "shoot BG #1 twice, then shoot BG #2 twice, then shoot BG #3 twice, and then lather, rinse, repeat? That is, you know, the most frequently encountered "rule" in staged shooting games (IPSIC/PPS). It assumes (yes, I used that word instead of "presumes" for a reason) that BGs #2 & #3 are going to stand there like in the ninja movies, until BG#1 has been taken care of, and then BG #3 will stand there until BG #2 has been dispatched. But that is the training standard, and we all are familiar with the saying that we will default to our training when SHTF.

    A final note - I am by no means an "expert" in self defense, or in the criminal defense of someone claiming self defense. I just wanted to bring out that just because you are carrying a gun does not always mean using the gun is the most elegant or most lawful solution to a bad situation. Your greatest weapon is that 10-pound ball on top of your neck.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    The same goes for a firearm there are firearm owners out there I would not trust to defend themselfs with a firearm.

    Ones ability and skill to defends ones self with any weapon comes into play in any selfdefense situation.

    Don't we hear the same BS from the anti firearm crowd that your gun will most likley be take from you and use against you.

    When it comes to being armed with some type of weapon or being beat down with no weapon I'll take a improvise one any time.
    A stick is not the same as a firearm. Most people under stress will empty a firearm, this has consistently been the case with even trained police officers. Once the firearm is empty a handgun can be used for a club, but again in a mob situation if overwhelmed the victim is screwed. But in the case of LA Asian business owners we know the crowd will turn when faced with a firearm. I highly doubt they would over a cane or a mall type device, which would be just as illegal as the firearm in Chicago. IMO I would much rather be punched or kicked than beaten with a padlock on a chain. Or just not live in IL and have the proper tools for self defense. Colt had a saying about his firearms, or somebody did at that time in history. Something like "God created man, Sam Colt made them equal".

    This situation has nothing to with "anti" it has to do with guns being denied people to defend themselves from a crowd, that is about as anti as it gets. I can't believe you tried to make the accusation.
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    A good firearm is a very effective self defense tool when one has one.

    When in areas where you can't or don't have a firearm one can or could have other items that can and coud be used as weapons to defend oneself.

    For those who rather go hand to hand with some people who are trying to kill or do you great Bodily harm have at it.

    I'll take a weapon even it is a rock I picked off the ground over my fist anyday.
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    In my advanced class we were taught: "everybody gets one before anyone gets two" for multiple assailant situations. Not saying if this is right or wrong. Just what we were taught.

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    My theory would be that the most imminent threat gets shot repeatedly until he is no longer an imminent mortal threat or no longer the most imminent mortal threat. I would then move on to the new most imminent mortal threat.

    I suspect that once the not-as-imminent mortal threats see what is happening to the most imminent mortal threats, they will start choosing not to be the most imminent mortal threat.

    My hope is that they figure out that the guy in front gets shot and start scrambling not to be in front. Kinda like "I don't have to outrun the lion. I only have to outrun you."

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    My theory would be that the most imminent threat gets shot repeatedly until he is no longer an imminent mortal threat or no longer the most imminent mortal threat. I would then move on to the new most imminent mortal threat.

    I suspect that once the not-as-imminent mortal threats see what is happening to the most imminent mortal threats, they will start choosing not to be the most imminent mortal threat.

    My hope is that they figure out that the guy in front gets shot and start scrambling not to be in front. Kinda like "I don't have to outrun the lion. I only have to outrun you."
    A firm believer that thugs, like ninjas, wait patiently to take their turn.

    For my money, unless they are separated by at least 100 yards, they are all equally simultaneous imminent threats. (100 yard dash takes how long?)

    Bunch up together? Good manners says everybody gets some before anybody gets seconds. Also keeps you from running out of some to give to BGs #2, #3, because you shot BG #1 to the ground.

    I blame Gaston Glock and all the other manufacturers of firearms that use magazines with capacities above 7 for this dangerous behavior. And that includes John Moses Browning (PBUH) who at least realized that the High Power, using 9mm, needed twice as many + 3 as a handgun chambered in .45acp.

    Of course, YMMV.

    stay safe.
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    100 yard dash takes 10 seconds for world-class sprinters, properly outfitted and not carrying weapons.

    If one had that much time (and the capability to be selective at targets 100 yards away), he would have lots of time to drop one, select another, drop him, select another, drop him, select another drop him. That likely would not be necessary. Drop the first one, and just the sound of the shot would give several pause. Dropping the second would stop almost all, probably all. Any fools still going would be so few as to provide clear target selection. By the third, there would be a race for last place. A race for last place in an approaching mob is called a full retreat.

    So, realistically, I don't want a mob within about 3 or 4 seconds of me. Considering that they are not world-class sprinters, are not appropriately clad, are cowards individually, are carrying something, may be moving deliberately, but are not sprinting, I calculate that that is about 25 feet. (Yeah, I know. Folks can close 25 feet in a lot less than 3-4 seconds. My point about the individual cowardice of mob members is that they are slowed by their need to remain in a mob.) Anyway, if I've let a mob get within 25 feet of me, I have already made a mistake.

    If a mob is moving deliberately toward me, with apparent evil intent, I am going to assume a defensive posture at 25 yards, and will fire within a second or two after that, having selected the likely only member with individual courage, the one on point.

    Remember, I don't have to defeat the mob. I need only motivate that herd in a different direction long enough for me to leave. A person from whom no bullets are emanating will be a herd magnet.

    Mobs are not like you see them on TV. The do not move with unswerving purpose in a coordinated way. Their courage only comes from the mistaken belief that they cannot be singled out for action and that, as long as the mob survives, they do. Their motion is dictated by the motion of those around them. Break that notion and that motion, and the courage goes away. The purpose swerves. The mob swerves.

    In the LA riots, the shop owner who defended his store from rioters needed only motivate the mob to swerve to an undefended store to save his.

    I guess that means that folks who choose to go about unarmed and defenseless do, in fact, serve a defensive purpose. They help us who are armed by providing a softer target, an alternative that the BGs would rather attack. Thank God for those particular hoplophobes. I have no qualms about using them in this way to defend me and mine.

    Again, my goal is not to win a battle with the mob, just to motivate them elsewhere while I move to a safer location. Like running away from a lion, I don't have to outrun him. I just have to outrun you. While he is lunching on you, I can calmly proceed to safety.

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