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self defense in a mob situation?

carolina guy

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While I don't have a disability to the extent that I am confined to a wheelchair or walker (though there are times when I could use one of those), I do have medical ailments that are serious enough to put me at a distinct disadvantage against even one nasty kid who wants to play knockout games with me. I have osteoarthritis in both knees, though thank God I had a total knee replacement of my right knee six months ago. I also have LSS (Lumbar Spinal Stenosis) which not only further impairs my ability to escape or fight, but makes it pretty easy to knock me to the ground and kick the crap out of me.

So like you, pretty much any attack is far more dangerous to me than to other who are in normal shape. I have little choice but to resort to my sidearm should such an attack occur.

I am relatively healthy (fingers crossed) and am not too worried about a couple teenagers...but if I have my wife and kids, I am at an extreme disadvantage...4 kids with the oldest at 8 and youngest almost 2. For me, there is no discussion...whatever it takes to extract them safely and deal with the aftermath later.
 

MamabearCali

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I am relatively healthy (fingers crossed) and am not too worried about a couple teenagers...but if I have my wife and kids, I am at an extreme disadvantage...4 kids with the oldest at 8 and youngest almost 2. For me, there is no discussion...whatever it takes to extract them safely and deal with the aftermath later.



This is where I am at....my eldest child is 7....then there is 5,3,1. We homeschool, so 99.9% of the time they are with me. Now we stay out of the city and try to stick to places we know are fairly safe. They are the reason I learned how to handle guns and how to shoot. So I do worry about a couple of teenagers. The idiot that killed that baby was 17 and his robin was 14. Not going to happen on my watch.

Now as for mobs...prob the best thing one could do with a family in tow is to find a defensible position. It could be anything even a tipped over trashcan that you can get the kids behind, and try to either hide or be prepared to do battle ( possibly both at the same time).
 

carolina guy

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This is where I am at....my eldest child is 7....then there is 5,3,1. We homeschool, so 99.9% of the time they are with me. Now we stay out of the city and try to stick to places we know are fairly safe. They are the reason I learned how to handle guns and how to shoot. So I do worry about a couple of teenagers. The idiot that killed that baby was 17 and his robin was 14. Not going to happen on my watch.

Now as for mobs...prob the best thing one could do with a family in tow is to find a defensible position. It could be anything even a tipped over trashcan that you can get the kids behind, and try to either hide or be prepared to do battle ( possibly both at the same time).

We are also homeschooling. Not really willing to trust the kids to others for their education and protection. We generally avoid large crowded areas, but that is also personal preference as well... :) You can say that we have an anti-GFSZ in effect.
 

MSG Laigaie

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Philipsburg, Montana
Ultimately, there are no guarantees. We just do the best we can with what we have to work with.
This is Truth. No plan survives first contact.

I will not be beaten I will do what it takes to stop the attack.
This is more than Truth!

Don't we hear the same BS from the anti firearm crowd that your gun will most likley be take from you and use against you.
This may happen, but Mates you will find my brass on the floor.

Flash Mob, just another name for an organized riot. These people/criminals do not go where they think they will be challenged. When the lead BG comes forward, shoot him/her. The others will run. It is not in their nature to run INTO gunfire. They will run.
 

carolina guy

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Flash Mob, just another name for an organized riot. These people/criminals do not go where they think they will be challenged. When the lead BG comes forward, shoot him/her. The others will run. It is not in their nature to run INTO gunfire. They will run.

+1
 

MKEgal

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in front of my computer, WI
EMNofSeattle said:
Well since this happened in Chicago firearms don't come into play
At least not for the good citizens [a.k.a. victims].

I reject skids argument, a mob of people is "disparity of force" therefore deadly force is justified
+1

skidmark said:
Those citing disparity of force issues seem to have fallen into a mind trap of presuming that all of the members of the mob, or a significant portion of the members of the mob, would be attacking a single individual.
I don't see that. But since any member of the mob (who's within a reasonable striking distance of me) could harm me, those same people would be fair targets should I choose to act in self-defense.

how many of you practice the "shoot BG #1 twice, then shoot BG #2 twice, then shoot BG #3 twice, and then lather, rinse, repeat?
I've seen giving one bit of lead to each attacker, then going back for more. (Though double-tapping takes very little time.)

eye95 said:
Illegal entry is,in and of itself, good reason to fear for one's safety
... I would not wait to find out for 100% certain that they meant me bodily harm.
+1
As far as I'm concerned, illegally entering my property, and especially my home, means that he/they intend to do other illegal things.
I'm not going to ask nicely what his/their intent is.
Ditto for a mob moving toward me.
Given the option, I'll get into a defensive position & call 911, but I don't believe for a second that they would leave me uninjured if they could get to me.
 

HP995

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So, almost none of the "activities" rose to the standard for self defense using deadly force: fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury.

So, how do you defend yourself in such a situation?

Videos of large groups beating and kicking someone while laughing are becoming common. If a hostile crowd surrounds you and gets physical, you're in serious danger. Unless you're Chuck Norris #2 to knock some heads or Carl Lewis Jr to leave 'em behind, there's no "nice" way to deal with many attackers. The only possible force is probably deadly force or threat of deadly force; melee is unlikely to succeed, a normal person will be quickly overwhelmed.

If you are in your car or a business you own/manage/maybe work at, the Castle Doctrine would apply in many states. Either way, survival is important. I hope events and the determination of good people will discourage this trend of thug mobs.

put me at a distinct disadvantage against even one nasty kid who wants to play knockout games

The bad thing about Knockout Games is sometimes very little warning, very little time, because the element of surprise is used from close range. People have sustained permanent disabilities and terrible injuries from the beatings. Even an armed (concealed) person could be easily caught off guard. OC might discourage an attack altogether.
 

skidmark

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Welcome to the discussion.

The question was stated as
So, almost none of the "activities" rose to the standard for self defense using deadly force: fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury.

So, how do you defend yourself in such a situation?

I still am waiting for someone to stick to the script and address the issue of how to defend/protect yourself when A) you are caught up in a mob that is not overtly threatening you with death or serious bodily injury, and B) the only obvious self defense impliment you have with you is your handgun?

Just because you carry a hammer does not mean that the only problems you will encounter will be nails.

stay safe.
 

WalkingWolf

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Welcome to the discussion.

The question was stated as

I still am waiting for someone to stick to the script and address the issue of how to defend/protect yourself when A) you are caught up in a mob that is not overtly threatening you with death or serious bodily injury, and B) the only obvious self defense impliment you have with you is your handgun?

Just because you carry a hammer does not mean that the only problems you will encounter will be nails.

stay safe.

I had a SIL who got through the crowd at Fantasy Fest by pretending to throw up. It worked amazingly well, as the swarms of people parted for her to pass.
 

eye95

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What do you mean by a mob?

If you mean a crowd of people, I find myself in mobs everyday and feel zero need to defend myself.

If you mean a group of unruly people doing nefarious things and advancing upon me and mine, I WILL fear for life and limb and WILL put a few rounds in the closest mob member, a few in the next, etc., until I run out of ammo or the mob veers to a more defenseless target.

There is a whole spectrum of groups of people in between. I would need a lot more specifics to give any better answer.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>
 

HP995

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I still am waiting for someone to stick to the script and address the issue of how to defend/protect yourself when A) you are caught up in a mob that is not overtly threatening you with death or serious bodily injury, and B) the only obvious self defense impliment you have with you is your handgun?

I believe these mobs are inherently a serious bodily threat, otherwise we wouldn't have to consider this question of how to defend against them. Perhaps some mobs are a little nicer than others and leave behind fewer broken victims, but it's hard to determine that until the day is over, and if you judge wrong you could end up disabled or dead. If it's a nice mob handing out candy and helping people across the street with their groceries, then there is no need to defend. If they are doing and threatening nothing physical, then neither can you. If they are roughing people up and there is mayhem, then we have to assume it's a deadly situation, wouldn't we?

If you're athletic you could run away and completely escape harm and legal issues. However, there might be other defenseless innocent people around, left behind to get beat up and robbed. I think that as a society we should not let thuggery rule. And some people are not able to run away. You could hide, it might work, but they might notice you and then you'd be extra vulnerable.

You could try to talk the mob out of it, but I doubt it would work. I've watched several of the thug mob videos and they tend to be the kind of people that don't respond well to either reason/kindness or to threats; they just attack while those on the fringes laugh, cheer, and record video with a stolen phone. ("Why are doing this?" - Wham wham - "I didn't do anything to you" - Pow pow - watch some of the videos.)

You could hand them your wallet and phone and say take this peacefully. They might take it and leave you alone, or they might take it and then club you on the head and go through your pockets to see if you held back on any goodies, or just take turns kicking you for fun. (I also feel that we shouldn't encourage criminals in their ways by using the "here, take the stuff" tactic.)

These are large groups and I think only a real kung fu legend or top commando could fight off so many attackers with bare hands or weapons of opportunity. A Marine got beat up in a parking lot by one of these groups and was saved only by a man nearby who had a gun in his car. If someone does have the skills to defend against 20 or 30 attackers without a gun, maybe even without seriously hurting anyone like the good guys in old TV shows, that's awesome, but most people can't do that.

You could look tough, hoping they'd pick a softer target, but it's more of gamble than a game plan, and they may just attack some else nearby. Doing OC might really do the trick though, discouraging the thugs altogether from you and anyone else in the area. Some thugs have guns so it could result in a shootout, but I think that's unlikely because they are looking for easy prey and fun looting/beating.

You could have some anti-thug gear with you at all times, maybe sparring armor or a helmet, but I doubt most people are going to wear that around. I'm not against it, but most people will not consider it practical. You could have nonlethal weapons but could still have a legal review of your actions and use of force.

So, I think the most realistic self-defense option if threatened by a mob is to use the handgun to scare them off, and open fire if you have to. Since we are blessed with the right to own firearms, it seems like the best solution to this situation. OC to begin with if it's legal. I don't see any other way of ensuring that you don't sustain serious injury, other than running away if you are fast enough and not leaving someone else helpless in the mob's wake.

I tried to play along with the "script" but I don't see any other way with a good enough chance of avoiding serious harm. Do you have another method?
 

ron73440

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Welcome to the discussion.

The question was stated as

I still am waiting for someone to stick to the script and address the issue of how to defend/protect yourself when A) you are caught up in a mob that is not overtly threatening you with death or serious bodily injury, and B) the only obvious self defense impliment you have with you is your handgun?

Just because you carry a hammer does not mean that the only problems you will encounter will be nails.

stay safe.

If they're not that dangerous, your best defense is good situational awareness and getting the hell out of Dodge.

If cornered put the wife and kids behind you, and I know you said all problems aren't nails, but I am not getting into a fist fight with a group, especially with a firearm on my side that would be taken after I lose the fight.

I consider myself to be better than average at fighting, but have no illusions about fighting a group, even one on one is a last resort.

Not sure what answer you're looking for, at the point of one against many, it becomes life threatening in my view.
 
Last edited:

skidmark

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What do you mean by a mob?

If you mean a crowd of people, I find myself in mobs everyday and feel zero need to defend myself.

If you mean a group of unruly people doing nefarious things and advancing upon me and mine, I WILL fear for life and limb and WILL put a few rounds in the closest mob member, a few in the next, etc., until I run out of ammo or the mob veers to a more defenseless target.

There is a whole spectrum of groups of people in between. I would need a lot more specifics to give any better answer.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

Go back to the link in the original post. The "mob" is defined there. For the sake of discussion, discount that it happened in Chicago - pick your own location and figure out what you would do that would both protect you and keep you out of jail.

stay safe.
 

eye95

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Well, if the question is "self defense in THAT 'mob' situation," the answer is simple; I absent myself from the situation.

But, the titular question just says "mob." There are a broad range of occurrences that could warrant that moniker. "Self defense in a mob situation" depends on what one means by "mob."
 

Mantioch

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Wyatt Earp did it without firing a shot.

Wyatt Earp to Ike Clanton, gun to his forehead: "You die first, get it? Your friends might get me in a rush, but not before I make your head into a canoe, you understand me?"

That's what I'm talking about. Best bet is to, as discretely as possible, move out of the crowd. That crowd is made up of individuals. The first time an individual does something overtly threatening, you handle it the same way as if it was one on one. Everyone else will likely get the message. Something like that, you may only need to pull your weapon and tell them to back off as you back out.
 

HP995

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Skid, can you play along with your own script too and give us your solution? Lot of people gave this serious thought.

If you are alone I believe that either the mob situation is serious enough to warrant the threat of deadly force or sprinting, or unserious enough to warrant doing nothing physical at all.
 

skidmark

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Skid, can you play along with your own script too and give us your solution? Lot of people gave this serious thought.

If you are alone I believe that either the mob situation is serious enough to warrant the threat of deadly force or sprinting, or unserious enough to warrant doing nothing physical at all.

Disengage and disappear at the first sign of trouble. There are lots of retail spaces still open at that time of the evening (which is what drew the crowds of shoppers/tourists in the first place). If the E&E route is blocked, become part of a larger mass of humanity, and work towards the inside while verbally encouraging the mass to move towards the relative safety of an open retail space. Sheep like direction.

If E&E or disappearing in a mass of humanity is not possible, remember that I have been shopping, which probably has provided me with several flail weapons along with the presence of my EDC package/letter opener (it's not a knife, officer, I just use it to open the plastic wrap around CDs). There is a great risk entailed in taking on more than a single "enemy" and especially so when they are exhibiting pack mentality. Hesitation or "pulling of punches" historically seems to excite them in the same way that the smell of blood induces a shark feeding frenzy. IMHO the proper response when confronted would be to go all berzerker on them.

From the reports, while there was a large total number of yutes involved, most appeared to be attached to a small unit that had little or no cohesion to the larger group. That reduces the likelihood that taking on one group will bring other groups as reinforcements. Frank, overt violence does not seem to produce the feeding frenzy response.

Once free again, revert to E&E with a vengance. (Hopefully my berzerker attack headed me towards an E&E route, if not right in front of my E&E goal of an oipen retail space.)

But remember, I'm a single entity - unencumbered with family to defend. Were I the leader of a flock I'd most likely be doing a fair drill instructor imitation while directing the flock towards E&E. Hopefully, I would also have laid out a scenario or two with the flock during one of the family discussions/"what if" sessions that should be irregularly scheduled events (calm at-home discussion of some event in the news that took place far away from us). Those scenarios would include the other adult in the herd (not always the spouse or the oldest) leading the smaller members away to(wards) safety while I did rear guard duty.

If you read the accounts of the incident you will see that most folks who became "victims" were overwhelmed and intimidated by the mere presence of their attackers. There was little actual violence and what was given was not lethal/life threatening. Reading between the lines I come up with mostly pushing and shoving along with unspecified verbal threats. The few serious attacks appear to be resulting from someone initially standing up against their attacker but unwilling to follow through with great violence of their own (of a magnitude or more greater than being confronted with). Those who became victims also appear to be those who, as the saying goes, stood around with one thumb in their mouth and the other one somewhere else, waiting for someone to yell "Switch!".

What impressed me most was that the majority of people caught up in the event just stood around waiting for "the authorities" to rescue them. For the most part the most action taken was to whip out a cellphone and dial 9-1-1. Researching the incident I could not find a single example of someone going to the aid of another by attacking the attackers. Aid was offered by a few by assisting the victim to move out of the middle of the sidewalk.

I know my response is not THE correct answer, and has parts that will not fit others' situations. But that's the point - it's my plan and not yours.

stay safe.
 
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