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Thread: Two more female Marines flunk infantry officers training

  1. #1
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Two more female Marines flunk infantry officers training

    FUQ.
    The only two women to participate in the Marine Corps Infantry Officer Course (IOC) failed ongoing tests to determine which infantry positions should be available to women, according to the Marine Corps Times:
    This thread is not about those who failed the test/course, 12 men failed also. Also, this thread is not about the political decisions that place our service members in harms way.

    Further down in the article:
    The Marine Corps’ commandant, Gen. Jim Amos, said he’s aware of concerns from infantrymen, and wants to ensure standards are not lowered because of the policy change.
    This thread is about the policy change. We should focus on how military commanders got to this point.

    The facts are that women have served in combat while not assigned to combat units. Women have made the ultimate sacrifice for our country.

    Women have, are, and will serve with distinction on the battle field.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Griz's Avatar
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    The Marine Corps’ commandant, Gen. Jim Amos, said he’s aware of concerns from infantrymen, and wants to ensure standards are not lowered because of the policy change.
    This.

    Along the same vein, it's a shame the standards did have to change to allow for women firefighters.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Without command in progressively larger combat units, promotion possibilities are limited. It gets worse the higher up you go. Commandant/Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps without combat command service is just not going to happen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...-star_generals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...-star_officers Three stars are not going to happen. Two stars? One star? Pretty much the same again. http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/arti...ions-announced

    And who is getting all the top jobs? http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...erals/1934129/ Needed combat command experience to get there, didn't they?

    Women are fighting for "equality". They want a chance to sit at the grown-ups table and in the big chair.

    I see nothing wrong with that. I see nothing wrong with a woman being in charge of a combat outfit (ever have a female "upset" with you, as opposed to a male?). But before they can get to the grown-ups table and sit in the big chair they need to earn the respect and trust of their troops. That means both taking the same risks and doing the same work - not some arbitrarily reduced metric to account for lesser upper body strength or stamina. My platoon commander better be able to hump the boonies (OK, you just get your mind out of the gutter! You know what I meant.) along with the rest of the us. With combat loads often approaching the same weight as the individual, I'm not inclined to have someone "go light" just because they are female. And so it goes on up the chain of command.

    On the bright side, I have not read anything suggesting that women have flunked out because of masive cases of the stupids, or from fluttering indecision. There is, IMHO, something worse that a Second Lieutenant with a compass and a radio - a Second Lieutenant that sits there with one thumb in his mouth and the other in his ass, waiting for someone to yell "Switch!" I have seen officers (NCOs, too) who could not pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were written on the sole who, when the time and need for action arrived did something. It may not have been the textbook "right" thing. It was occassionally the wrong thing. But once you start moving it is easier to correct/adjust than if you just stand there.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    The CO on one of my first boats told a JO (Ensign) - "Right or wrong make a damn decision. Waiting for me to make the decision for you will lose this ship and her crew."

    The JO - "What if it is the wrong decision?"

    CO - "That is why I trained this crew to cover your azz if you make the wrong decision. Trust the crew and make a damn decision."

    The the Old man pushed the JO down the ladder (steep stairs) and he ended up coming to a stop in the Wardroom. The JO was bruised but OK. He should've been more careful those ladders are not your typical home stairway, easy to slip and fall.

    Ah, the good ole days.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by Griz View Post
    This.

    Along the same vein, it's a shame the standards did have to change to allow for women firefighters.
    Its the same in the military and has been for years and years ... males have to do this and that when women have different standards just due to different physiological reasons or differences. Not that the physical standards are that high, even for males IMO ...

  6. #6
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Without command in progressively larger combat units, promotion possibilities are limited. It gets worse the higher up you go. Commandant/Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps without combat command service is just not going to happen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...-star_generals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...-star_officers Three stars are not going to happen. Two stars? One star? Pretty much the same again. http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/arti...ions-announced

    And who is getting all the top jobs? http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...erals/1934129/ Needed combat command experience to get there, didn't they?

    Women are fighting for "equality". They want a chance to sit at the grown-ups table and in the big chair.

    I see nothing wrong with that. I see nothing wrong with a woman being in charge of a combat outfit (ever have a female "upset" with you, as opposed to a male?). But before they can get to the grown-ups table and sit in the big chair they need to earn the respect and trust of their troops. That means both taking the same risks and doing the same work - not some arbitrarily reduced metric to account for lesser upper body strength or stamina. My platoon commander better be able to hump the boonies (OK, you just get your mind out of the gutter! You know what I meant.) along with the rest of the us. With combat loads often approaching the same weight as the individual, I'm not inclined to have someone "go light" just because they are female. And so it goes on up the chain of command.

    On the bright side, I have not read anything suggesting that women have flunked out because of massive cases of the stupids, or from fluttering indecision. There is, IMHO, something worse that a Second Lieutenant with a compass and a radio - a Second Lieutenant that sits there with one thumb in his mouth and the other in his ass, waiting for someone to yell "Switch!" I have seen officers (NCOs, too) who could not pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were written on the sole who, when the time and need for action arrived did something. It may not have been the textbook "right" thing. It was occasionally the wrong thing. But once you start moving it is easier to correct/adjust than if you just stand there.

    stay safe.
    We were in the same military, I can tell.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    If in a fight for equality if you have to lower standards for one subset you are not "equal" but have set yourself up to be superior to those who belong to another subset who are forced to meet the old standards.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    If in a fight for equality if you have to lower standards for one subset you are not "equal" but have set yourself up to be superior to those who belong to another subset who are forced to meet the old standards.
    Then 1 requirement is now the ability to have babies ....

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    There are physical, and psychological differences between males and females. If all things being equal, minus physiological differences, between a male and a female, the male and female were put in a ring to fight it out, to the death, the male will win nearly every time, IMO.

    I'm going to share some private information about myself, as anecdotal proof, that what I just asserted above, is true: A number of years ago, for two years, I injected testosterone...my testosterone levels were male level testosterone levels, for two years.

    Aside from the discomfort it caused me...

    So, I could do three times more pushups. I noticed there was this sort of...how do I explain it, there was this ability to disconnect from emotion, and focus the energy on aggressiveness...I don't know how else to describe it.

    What's my point?: Males (healthy males), are inherently stronger, have more immediate endurance, strength, and adapt better to aggressive situations, and actions.

    Mind you, there are some social factors, but testosterone is a powerful hormone, which makes the male body a stronger, more aggressive adapting machine.

    Another example: I noticed that prior to injecting testosterone, when I would get angry at someone, I would get thoughts in my head, plotting thoughts, of humiliating a person that was ******* me off; after injecting testosterone, when someone was ******* me off, I would get this urge to get into a fist fight with the person...the drive was much more physical. Now, I'm not stating females don't get into fist fights...I'm just telling you my experience.

    IMO, standards ought be the same for both, but let's not be under the illusion for one second that all things being equal the majority of males, under the light of military combat, are better suited than the majority of females.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    ....

    IMO, standards ought be the same for both, but let's not be under the illusion for one second that all things being equal the majority of males, under the light of military combat, are better suited than the majority of females.
    But, as you said, all things are not equal. They cannot be made equal - not by giving the women testosterone or the men estrogen. As you note, women do not, as a group, have the lightswitch rage/not rage response that men do. While you can lead from the rear in many endeavors, combat is just not one of them. Analysis and long-term planning are necessary at the pointy end of the spear as much as they are necessary at GHQ, but up at the pointy end that often gets translated into "should I shoot him now that I have stuck my knife in him/brained him with my e-tool?" more often than "how can we exploit the enemy's cultural expectations of women as opposed to men?" And since the leaders are expected to lead as opposed to actually fight, they are also the ones more likely to be in a position and physically unexhausted should it become necessary to evacuate wounded/dead. If a woman cannot hump a dead-weight soldier down the hill, bodies are more likely to get left behind - and if that happens morale goes. As an E-4 in charge of a fire team I did not get to carry the M-14 with the switch/would not carry the M-249 LMG, because my job was to coordinate/control/communicate the activities of my fire team. Same for platoon sergeants, platoon leaders, and up and up the chain.

    And considering who our military is going to be contending against for the forseeable future (not just muzzies, but that's the most likely), the opposition is going to treat captured women differently in ways that the general public will not be willing to tolerate and thus will demand that women be removed from combat arms assignments.

    Damned if you do, damned if you don't, and if you set up a separate admin/supply track for women what will become of the Major Powerses of the military? (remember hin from Heartbtrak Ridge? - a damned fine supply officer)

    I've got no solution to offer - just the observation that in combat arms there is no room for equality and fairness.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  11. #11
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    *snippers*

    I've got no solution to offer - just the observation that in combat arms there is no room for equality and fairness.

    stay safe.
    I agree.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Patriot View Post
    ....

    By contrast, mid level average males, of which there are millions in America, do enter the armed forces and can complete the Marine program.
    And we have a winner!

    And no, as much as some folks' fantasies would love to see it, there will not be all-female combat units. And unlike police departments, combat units do not have the luxury of never partnering with the cop who can't meet standards, or taking their sweet time responding to calls for backup, or any of the other tactics used to try and move the under-qualified off the force or at least out of the field.

    Lord knows I was not a great physical specimen, and I hated PT with a passion, but I passed the PFT every year - usually with the same training program I used for rifle qualification: show up and get it over with.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Let them try...it is only sporting...but do not lower the standards, not one inch.

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