Not Showing ID=resisting. Lansing, MI

DrTodd · Apr 6, 2013

1.Lying to the LEO.
2. If the officer was called to investigate a crime and the person gave up his right to remain silent by answering the officers questions. If a person gives up his right to remain silent but yet refuses to ID himself when the questioning leads the officer to reasonably believe the person either commited a crime or was about to commit a crime. I, however, am not an attorney and this is just nonprofessional conjecture.

My point is that we only have one side of the story...his. Then there is the fact that this person was successfully convicted of the same charge before... I wonder how this happened.

TheQ · Apr 6, 2013

DrTodd said:
1.Lying to the LEO.
2. If the officer was called to investigate a crime and the person gave up his right to remain silent by answering the officers questions. If a person gives up his right to remain silent but yet refuses to ID himself when the questioning leads the officer to reasonably believe the person either commited a crime or was about to commit a crime would seem to fall under this law. I, however, am not an attorney and this is just nonprofessional conjecture.

My point is that we only have one side of the story...his. Then there is the fact that this person was successfully convicted of the same charge before... I wonder how this happened.

If I cared enough, I'd go pull the District Court record and find out the alleged facts.

Fact of the matter is, I don't care that much

Though I agree with your assessment about one side.

davidmcbeth · Apr 6, 2013

carolina guy said:
A fence with a locked gate across the driveway is more effective. Closest to our house someone can get without hopping the fence is about 30 feet.

Claymores even better ! The they really do hop. Good suggestion but costs more than the claymores.

MKEgal · Apr 6, 2013

DrTodd said:
If the officer was called to investigate a crime and the person gave up his right to remain silent by answering the officers questions. If a person gives up his right to remain silent but yet refuses to ID himself when the questioning leads the officer to reasonably believe the person either commited a crime or was about to commit a crime

You can invoke your right to remain silent at any time, even if you've already answered some questions.
Peacefully exercising civil rights is not RAS of a crime.

In fact, across the puddle over here in WI it's case law:
No law allows officers to arrest for obstruction on a person’s refusal to give his or her name. Mere silence is insufficient to constitute obstruction.
Henes v. Morrissey (WI, 1995)

There's even federal case law:
"The Claim and exercise of a Constitutional Right cannot be converted into a crime."
Miller v. U.S.

KBCraig · Apr 6, 2013

Citizen said:
Wouldn't be surprised.

The wonders of the national ID standards with digital drivers licenses. Just run the plates for a name. Go to the drivers license database, type in the name, pull up the photo. If its the same guy, issue the citation. Of course, this raises the question as to whether there was really an obstruction since the cop was able to identify his victim on other channels.

Ah, but the officer could have done all that in 2 minutes from his MDT, instead of applying for a warrant and having it delivered 10 days later.

No matter where or when he pulled the info, doing so would reveal the guy was on his own property, and there was no basis for charges.

carolina guy · Apr 6, 2013

davidmcbeth said:
Claymores even better ! The they really do hop. Good suggestion but costs more than the claymores.

Fence is a lot easier on my kids, though and tends to keep them where we can keep an eye on them (primary reason) and keeps roaming dogs out (secondary reason)...well, and the local Jehovah's Witnesses and magazine sales people.

Not to mention...the fence is a *tad* more re-usable.

carolina guy · Apr 6, 2013

MKEgal said:
There's even federal case law:
"The Claim and exercise of a Constitutional Right cannot be converted into a crime."
Miller v. U.S.

Just keep in mind that that case was a 5th Circuit appeals case decision, not a SCOTUS decision. Here is the text.

mikestilly · Apr 6, 2013

Gotta love all the posts and zero info on what the officer was doing or what was going on. I myself am suspicious of this fellow. "Riddle says a similar charge was filed against him about five years ago. That time, he pled guilty but this time, he says he'll fight it to the end."

My guess is he was doing something possibly something suspicious and ended up in his driveway and assumed he was home free but that's just a guess considering we have absolutely no information about what this was about from the article its safer to not jump to conclusions until the facts are out.

Ezerharden · Apr 7, 2013

mikestilly said:
Gotta love all the posts and zero info on what the officer was doing or what was going on. I myself am suspicious of this fellow. "Riddle says a similar charge was filed against him about five years ago. That time, he pled guilty but this time, he says he'll fight it to the end."

My guess is he was doing something possibly something suspicious and ended up in his driveway and assumed he was home free but that's just a guess considering we have absolutely no information about what this was about from the article its safer to not jump to conclusions until the facts are out.

Good point. One should always wait for the facts before forming an opinion, whether it is regarding a news article that is rather incomplete, or speculation on what will be sacrificed on the political alter for a given pro gun bill.

FreeInAZ · Apr 7, 2013

While Mike may actually have a valid point - for once. LPD has a long history of "bending" the law or flat out abusing it. With this knowledge it is atleast fair to suspect some foul on their part. The citizen...who knows...??? Could be a loon or just someone who asks too many questions. PD's can & do single out people who make them or their bosses in city gov. look bad. It's called silencing a person through $$$ punishment. IE most people when faced with thousands of dollars in legal fees + lost work/job will simply plead out and pay the fine innocent or not. Most people say "screw it, I can't afford to prove my innocence in court!" The police know this, and corrupt departments count on this.

Citizen · Apr 7, 2013

KBCraig said:
Ah, but the officer could have done all that in 2 minutes from his MDT, instead of applying for a warrant and having it delivered 10 days later.

No matter where or when he pulled the info, doing so would reveal the guy was on his own property, and there was no basis for charges.

Good point--the timing is still suspicious. Makes you wonder why law enfarcement changed their minds.

JoeSparky · Apr 7, 2013

Citizen said:
Good point--the timing is still suspicious. Makes you wonder why law enfarcement changed their minds.

So, absent some other details changing the nature of this occurrence, the mailing of the citation is a punishment for "contempt of cop" exercise!

lil_freak_66 · Apr 7, 2013

FreeInAZ said:
While Mike may actually have a valid point - for once. LPD has a long history of "bending" the law or flat out abusing it. With this knowledge it is atleast fair to suspect some foul on their part. The citizen...who knows...??? Could be a loon or just someone who asks too many questions. PD's can & do single out people who make them or their bosses in city gov. look bad. It's called silencing a person through $$$ punishment. IE most people when faced with thousands of dollars in legal fees + lost work/job will simply plead out and pay the fine innocent or not. Most people say "screw it, I can't afford to prove my innocence in court!" The police know this, and corrupt departments count on this.

very long history indeed.

the city attorney, i once spoke with him about the unlawful anti gun ordinances on the books, as well as the unlawful skirting around giving me a purchase permit....basically the response was f*ck you, sue us...its what we have insurance for(which id like to point out they are several hundred thousand dollars past due on according to local news)

Citizen · Apr 7, 2013

JoeSparky said:
So, absent some other details changing the nature of this occurrence, the mailing of the citation is a punishment for "contempt of cop" exercise!

Do you recall what happened to (Venator?) in CA a couple years ago?

He refused to identify and the cops dug his drivers license out of his wallet over top of his express refused consent. The cops couldn't figure out a charge, so they let him go. Some time later, maybe a week, the prosecutor decides to go after him, twisting the law on carry in public places. Even got the judge to agree to change the definition of public.

I got $5 that says the guy in this thread's OP is the victim of similar. The cop wouldn't have passed up the chance to nail him for contempt of cop right on the spot if possible. What cop doesn't know whether he can get away with an obstruction charge for refusing to identify?

Haman J.T. · Apr 8, 2013

mikestilly said:
Gotta love all the posts and zero info on what the officer was doing or what was going on. I myself am suspicious of this fellow. "Riddle says a similar charge was filed against him about five years ago. That time, he pled guilty but this time, he says he'll fight it to the end."

My guess is he was doing something possibly something suspicious and ended up in his driveway and assumed he was home free but that's just a guess considering we have absolutely no information about what this was about from the article its safer to not jump to conclusions until the facts are out.

I can understand him pleading to get it over with(ignorance of the law).Same thing happened to my neighbor.He was sitting in his car listening to his radio(private property),cop showed up(said there was a report of shoplifting),asked for ID,searched his car,gave him a ticket for disturbing the peace(loud radio).I went to court with him,as a witness(didn't hear no radio 40' away/windows open).His court appointed lawyer got lesser charge,he chose to get it over with($350 fine).He couldn't understand that my witness would get the charges dropped.He just didn't want to go to court again! Sheeesh!He finally understood after I explained it to him later and said he would never do that again! He's no longer "ignorant" of the law!

Venator · Apr 8, 2013

Citizen said:
Do you recall what happened to (Venator?) in CA a couple years ago?

He refused to identify and the cops dug his drivers license out of his wallet over top of his express refused consent. The cops couldn't figure out a charge, so they let him go. Some time later, maybe a week, the prosecutor decides to go after him, twisting the law on carry in public places. Even got the judge to agree to change the definition of public.

I got $5 that says the guy in this thread's OP is the victim of similar. The cop wouldn't have passed up the chance to nail him for contempt of cop right on the spot if possible. What cop doesn't know whether he can get away with an obstruction charge for refusing to identify?

Wasn't me. I'm in Michigan.

1245A Defender · Apr 8, 2013

Well,,,

Citizen said:
Do you recall what happened to (Venator?) in CA a couple years ago?

He refused to identify and the cops dug his drivers license out of his wallet over top of his express refused consent. The cops couldn't figure out a charge, so they let him go. Some time later, maybe a week, the prosecutor decides to go after him, twisting the law on carry in public places. Even got the judge to agree to change the definition of public.

I got $5 that says the guy in this thread's OP is the victim of similar. The cop wouldn't have passed up the chance to nail him for contempt of cop right on the spot if possible. What cop doesn't know whether he can get away with an obstruction charge for refusing to identify?

Venator said:
Wasn't me. I'm in Michigan.

Right, it was in california, I cant remember a screen name but it was 3 years ago in a laundry mat, he was inverstiaged for unloaded open carry,
they violated his 4th amendment right by stealing his wallet and writing down his ID info before letting him go.
About a week went by till they discovered that a school was about 800 feet away, they charged him with the califonia state GFSZ law.
The court did nothing about the 4th violating, they would not respect the private property exemption,
and they would not respect that he did not reasonably know that a school was nearby, as he had never seen it, nor did
the cops know it was nearby either!
He got royaly screwed by the courts, got fed up with the state and the country, He moved to Hong Kong!

ETA, I looked it up, here is a thread where he explanes how this happened and how it all panned out,
. Theseus 626.9 Case...The REAL DEAL!

1245A Defender · Apr 9, 2013

Wel,,,

I am bumping this to the top so that you folks might take the time to read the link I posted above
about Theseus and his arrest in california so many years ago.

Grapeshot · Apr 9, 2013

1245A Defender said:
I am bumping this to the top so that you folks might take the time to read the link I posted above
about Theseus and his arrest in california so many years ago.

The sad part is that Theseus moved/departed/left the country

JoeSparky · Apr 9, 2013

I do remember the threads involving Thesus (sp) and that particular MISCARRIAGE OF JUSTICE we witnessed and he was force to experience.

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