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Thread: CPL holders 'live in a dream world' - aka, why training is important.

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    CPL holders 'live in a dream world' - aka, why training is important.

    This is mostly meant as anti-gun propaganda, but could be construed as 'why you should train'.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QjZY3WiO9s

    ETA: Regardless of the video's original intent or media agenda, there is good information/examples about why training above and beyond your CPL course is a good idea.
    Last edited by Evil Creamsicle; 04-05-2013 at 01:35 PM.

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    I have "NO" opinion. Thanks for setting me straight marshaul.
    Last edited by casper; 04-07-2013 at 09:06 PM.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    In all their examples, the bad guys knew who they were going after. This is about as realistic as Grand Theft Auto. Other than their first intended target, the instructor, real bad guys are not going to know who to shoot at. And their clothing was all wrong. It was too easy for their weapons to get hung up on their clothes. Those white shirts were great for seeing if they'd been hit, but sucked as concealment garments.

    Did those people actually practice drawing from concealment? I seriously doubt it.
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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    For the sake of Pete!

    Honest honorable law abiding people have managed to defend themselves with guns without any special "training" for decades! It is only recently when some people have discovered there is money to be made with "training" that there has been a focus on.... you guessed it... "training".

    What did people do back in the old days when there wasn't any uber tactical super duper experts offering "training"? Well....law abiding folks managed to defend themselves with their guns ... without paying big bucks to self appointed "experts" who say that "training" is necessary.

    Sure "training" has value in preparing people to respond more effectively for the time when they need to defend themselves... but History itself shows that people somehow manage to do it all on their own without training anyway. Perhaps not as well as if they did have the training yet they still managed without it.

    Let us not fall into the latest BS that "training" is suddenly something that is "needed" in order to be able to exercise the right to keep and bear arms.. because I fear all this talk about "training" is laying the groundwork for exactly that... a requirement for a certain level of "training" to qualify for the right to keep and bear arms.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    I know lots of cpl holders that shouldn,t even have a gun.
    No, you don't. You don't even know a single one, as you have no right to decide who "shouldn't even have a gun".

    Get over yourself.

    Sorry, but you said it.
    Last edited by marshaul; 04-07-2013 at 04:03 PM.

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    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    No, you don't. You don't even know a single one, as you have no right to decide who "shouldn't even have a gun".

    Get over yourself.

    Sorry, but you said it.
    I have to agree somewhat- but there are people whose weapon handling skills make me nervous; I will go to the next county rather than be in their 'zone'.

    May they have guns? Constitutional issue.

    Should they have guns? That's a question for their insurance agent and attorney.

    Should I be around them when they have guns? My choice.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    I have to agree somewhat- but there are people whose weapon handling skills make me nervous; I will go to the next county rather than be in their 'zone'.

    May they have guns? Constitutional issue.

    Should they have guns? That's a question for their insurance agent and attorney.

    Should I be around them when they have guns? My choice.
    If we start judging others according to our own personal opinion of what should be "reasonable", "appropriate", or "acceptable", then we leave ourselves open to those standards being forced upon us by whoever happens to be... "in power". And those "in power" are more than willing to force compliance through economic coercion with insurance and through loss of freedom with using the law to incarcerate those who resist.

    And I agree that whether an individual decides to be not be around someone they consider to lack in skill or decide to take the high road and help that person develop better skills is definitely a personal decision.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    I have to agree somewhat- but there are people whose weapon handling skills make me nervous; I will go to the next county rather than be in their 'zone'.

    May they have guns? Constitutional issue.

    Should they have guns? That's a question for their insurance agent and attorney.

    Should I be around them when they have guns? My choice.
    Every so often I see poor weapon handling at the free, unsupervised, public range near my house.

    I suppose I could flee in terror. Usually I'll politely rectify the behavior, if I think it rises to the level of being dangerous. It's not like most of these folks are trying to be reckless. Most of the time nobody's bothered to teach them any better.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    For the sake of Pete!

    Honest honorable law abiding people have managed to defend themselves with guns without any special "training" for decades! It is only recently when some people have discovered there is money to be made with "training" that there has been a focus on.... you guessed it... "training".

    What did people do back in the old days when there wasn't any uber tactical super duper experts offering "training"? Well....law abiding folks managed to defend themselves with their guns ... without paying big bucks to self appointed "experts" who say that "training" is necessary.

    Sure "training" has value in preparing people to respond more effectively for the time when they need to defend themselves... but History itself shows that people somehow manage to do it all on their own without training anyway. Perhaps not as well as if they did have the training yet they still managed without it.

    Let us not fall into the latest BS that "training" is suddenly something that is "needed" in order to be able to exercise the right to keep and bear arms.. because I fear all this talk about "training" is laying the groundwork for exactly that... a requirement for a certain level of "training" to qualify for the right to keep and bear arms.
    In the "old west" days, people who wanted to become proficient with firearms, practiced....and practiced, and practiced, and practiced some more.

    If you've ever seen the old western movie, "Warlock," with Henry Fonda, you might remember a scene, where he explains to the town council that hired him, why he works as a dealer in his friend's saloon. And he mentions that the $400.00 they pay him each month doesn't even cover the cost of the ammunition he uses up in practice.

    Back in that time, the typical salary for a lawman was about $150.00 to $200.00 a month. And we'd kill for the ammo prices they had then.

    My point is, if you're like me, you practice as much as you can. You practice your marksmanship at the range. But, considering most public ranges don't allow drawing from the holster, you practice your drawing technique at home. Preferably with a practice weapon, or at the very least, an unloaded firearm. If you don't, you might find your reflexes wanting in a real SHTF situation. So, practice, practice, and practice some more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    No, you don't. You don't even know a single one, as you have no right to decide who "shouldn't even have a gun".

    Get over yourself.

    Sorry, but you said it.
    Your right I.m wrong, forgive me please. Thank you for treating me with respect also. Thanks for telling me what I think as well. What a friendly forum. I'm so stupid, I don't know a darn thing. Thanks for setting me straight.
    Last edited by casper; 04-07-2013 at 08:50 PM.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    Your right I.m wrong, forgive me please. Thank you for treating me with respect also. Thanks for telling me what I think as well. What a friendly forum. I'm so stupid, I don't know a darn thing. Thanks for setting me straight.
    Although it was not very diplomatic, I think I preferred your first response.

    However, I am glad you changed it, since I would have had to delete or modify it myself.

    Now, can we all just get along and maybe get back on topic?

    Thank you.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    Your right I.m wrong, forgive me please. Thank you for treating me with respect also. Thanks for telling me what I think as well. What a friendly forum. I'm so stupid, I don't know a darn thing. Thanks for setting me straight.
    I apologize. I was too brusque.

    I can be that way sometimes, and it's my failing, not yours.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: CPL holders 'live in a dream world' - aka, why training is important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    This is mostly meant as anti-gun propaganda, but could be construed as 'why you should train'.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QjZY3WiO9s

    ETA: Regardless of the video's original intent or media agenda, there is good information/examples about why training above and beyond your CPL course is a good idea.
    Evil - this "test" was complete bunk using flawed concepts and inexperienced carriers. Would love to see it done with veteran OCers - something tells me bad guy gets one or two shots off max before receiving a heavy dose of "incoming" rounds. But this would never happen - why? Because it does not fit the "media's agenda."

    Many CCers are slow at the draw, but as mentioned this is easily overcome with practice and equipment / clothing adjustments.
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    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    For the sake of Pete!

    Honest honorable law abiding people have managed to defend themselves with guns without any special "training" for decades! It is only recently when some people have discovered there is money to be made with "training" that there has been a focus on.... you guessed it... "training".

    What did people do back in the old days when there wasn't any uber tactical super duper experts offering "training"? Well....law abiding folks managed to defend themselves with their guns ... without paying big bucks to self appointed "experts" who say that "training" is necessary.

    Sure "training" has value in preparing people to respond more effectively for the time when they need to defend themselves... but History itself shows that people somehow manage to do it all on their own without training anyway. Perhaps not as well as if they did have the training yet they still managed without it.

    Let us not fall into the latest BS that "training" is suddenly something that is "needed" in order to be able to exercise the right to keep and bear arms.. because I fear all this talk about "training" is laying the groundwork for exactly that... a requirement for a certain level of "training" to qualify for the right to keep and bear arms.
    You're wrong! It's not decades(as if guns/self defense is new,as the anti's would have us believe),it's several hundred years of self defense with a gun has been going on!
    And you're right about the training myth,specifically according to the Institute of Justice,which states 90% of defensive uses with guns only require "the appearance" of the gun(no shots),which is about 6000 + times a day! CARRY ON!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    By the way, the video in the OP was retarded. I left a few comments on the tube indicating my assessment.

    I'll keep it simple:

    Taking a bunch of random pukes, giving them an afternoon's training, forcing them to concealed carry without hundreds (preferably thousands) of draw cycles, and then having a trained professional bust in and, knowing full well in advance exactly which of the guinea pigs is armed, target that individual specifically to make them feel dumb and prove a point = exactly how real life works.



    If I were to play their little game, and approach it with the same dishonesty they did: I'd sit in the back, I'd open carry, and I'd insist on a "gunman" who wasn't trained and couldn't identify me specifically from prior knowledge.

    I suspect the outcome wouldn't be so pat, then.

    By the way, regarding the silly comment "our class is already way more training than most states require for a concealed weapons permit." The notion that training necessarily starts and stops with that mandated by the state reflects an attitude so hopelessly statist I'll not justify it with a further response.

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Jesus guys... I know, I even mentioned, I thought, that this was propaganda. Just posted it because its one of those 'makes ya think' sort of things. I bet most of us on here would have done a lot better.

    Also, I suppose I should have said *practice* instead of *training*, as some don't seem to realize the difference between "training" and training.

    Consider the scenario though. Consider how valuable of a training exercise that would be if it was able to be simulated with unbiased people and done the right way [for example, the 'shooter' not knowing who the armed citizen was]

    Also consider that there are probably a lot of people with about that level of skill carrying... which they have every right to do. But think about how it might affect your actions if you were involved in a situation with them.

    Just trying to keep the blood flowing to your brains guys.
    This was just meant as food for thought and nothing more.

    As a side note, I'd like to get my hands on some of those paint-shooting glocks... but they're probably expensive.

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Evil - this "test" was complete bunk using flawed concepts and inexperienced carriers.
    Mein friend. I would hope you know me well enough by know to know that I am aware of this. :-\

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    By the way, regarding the silly comment "our class is already way more training than most states require for a concealed weapons permit." The notion that training necessarily starts and stops with that mandated by the state reflects an attitude so hopelessly statist I'll not justify it with a further response.
    The parts of your post omitted from my quote are omitted because I have no disagreement with them :-)

    As for this statement, I also agree, however I feel I should point out that there are a great many who do stop there. As mentioned above, you should consider how this might affect you if involved in a situation with these people since, obviously, we would never tell them they can't carry as is their right.

  19. #19
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: CPL holders 'live in a dream world' - aka, why training is important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    Mein friend. I would hope you know me well enough by know to know that I am aware of this. :-\
    Yah yah! Was more a statement for the crowd, to get their wheels spinning & thinking caps on.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    The parts of your post omitted from my quote are omitted because I have no disagreement with them :-)

    As for this statement, I also agree, however I feel I should point out that there are a great many who do stop there. As mentioned above, you should consider how this might affect you if involved in a situation with these people since, obviously, we would never tell them they can't carry as is their right.
    Of course. And if you want to carry to be cool, or for a "feeling" of safety, then that video might be of value.

    But for those of us who are dedicated to and passionate about the pursuit, it's a joke.

    In such a dumb "study", I might as well tell the gun carrier to hold the gun in his hand, and immediately shoot the first person coming through the door (knowing full well it will be the fake "bad guy"), and then just say, "oop, looky there, having a gun always saves the day. QED. Everyone go buy a gun."

    In fact, we should get some OCers together and do that "study", for a laugh.
    Last edited by marshaul; 04-09-2013 at 02:30 PM.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Of course. And if you want to carry to be cool, or for a "feeling" of safety, then that video might be of value.

    But for those of us who are dedicated to and passionate about the pursuit, it's a joke.

    In such a dumb "study", I might as well tell the gun carrier to hold the gun in his hand, and immediately shoot the first person coming through the door (knowing full well it will be the fake "bad guy"), and then just say, "oop, looky there, having a gun always saves the day. QED. Everyone go buy a gun."

    In fact, we should get some OCers together and do that "study", for a laugh.
    We're on the same page.

    My point was that, in addition to 'bad guys', these people who...
    want to carry to be cool, or for a "feeling" of safety
    ... are also a part of the equation. And potentially just as dangerous :-\

    You're saying that to those of us dedicated and passionate about the pursuit, it's a joke. And you're right. And the reason is that we have taken it upon ourselves to properly educate and train ourselves. And I think more people should. ETA: and of the many people who find this site on the interwebz via the googles, I'm sure there are a few that fall into this category. Hopefully this conversation of ours will encourage them to go learn.
    Last edited by Evil Creamsicle; 04-09-2013 at 04:27 PM.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    It's been about 40 years but I remember hearing about a teenager who shot a burglar with his dad's bow, he had zero training in using a bow for a burglar. He did know how to use one though, training is good, but it should be voluntary and not mandated just to put money in another person's pocket. That is why we have so much problems with our rights, they have been turned into privileges subject to the almighty dollar. And then people wonder why the government still continues to try strip us of rights in one form or another.

    The firearms training industry has become a industry on making a buck, not actually furthering self defense.
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    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    It's been about 40 years but I remember hearing about a teenager who shot a burglar with his dad's bow, he had zero training in using a bow for a burglar. He did know how to use one though, training is good, but it should be voluntary and not mandated just to put money in another person's pocket. That is why we have so much problems with our rights, they have been turned into privileges subject to the almighty dollar. And then people wonder why the government still continues to try strip us of rights in one form or another.

    The firearms training industry has become a industry on making a buck, not actually furthering self defense.
    +1
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  24. #24
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The firearms training industry has become a industry on making a buck, not actually furthering self defense.
    While I have high respect for any good gun trainer, I have a moral issue with the thorough unavailability of the right knowledge to those who can't afford to pay for it. You can't even find anyone providing thorough information on defensive gun use on youtube, at least not that I know of. You can patch together a pretty good idea with information available for free, but it's not easy, and there will still likely be a lot of holes in your skill set.

    I do wish that knowledgeable shooters teaching others who lack shooting skill would be considered a community service type thing which should be done routinely. Instead, it's all about money, and quite often some very poor techniques being taught for that money.

  25. #25
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: CPL holders 'live in a dream world' - aka, why training is important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    While I have high respect for any good gun trainer, I have a moral issue with the thorough unavailability of the right knowledge to those who can't afford to pay for it. You can't even find anyone providing thorough information on defensive gun use on youtube, at least not that I know of. You can patch together a pretty good idea with information available for free, but it's not easy, and there will still likely be a lot of holes in your skill set.

    I do wish that knowledgeable shooters teaching others who lack shooting skill would be considered a community service type thing which should be done routinely. Instead, it's all about money, and quite often some very poor techniques being taught for that money.
    It is for these reasons that I am a firm beleiver that what we all pay for already should be made available to the general public for free. We pay for police academies across the country, correct? Why then can't we offer spots in these classes to the public? Police constantly say they want the public to know safe gun handling techniques, correct? I remember having a talk with a local police officer in MI whose department served my community & had just opened up a state of the art range. I floated the same idea buy him. His response it will never happen too much liability for department. As he is saying this I notice a group of civilians going into the range and ask who are they? "Oh they're a local gun club, it's ok - the cheif said so."

    You gotta love that kind of logic... :what: We pick & choose who's life is worth more and offer them benefits others will never get.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 04-12-2013 at 11:13 PM.
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    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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