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Thread: Question: Buying firearm in to (to oc)

  1. #1
    Regular Member HearseGuy's Avatar
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    Question: Buying firearm in to (to oc)

    I have a question about purchasing a firearm from a dealer. Specifically a gun show. My buddy is looking to purchase a firearm tomorrow. He will be OCing with it.

    My question is the secondary form of ID. The VSP site says a passport is an acceptable secondary ID. It then says the second ID must have the same address listed as the primary ID (in his case his valid VA drivers license)

    Only a passport doesn't have an address? His don't, mine don't and every sample I've seen online doesn't. So will his CURRENT passport and CURRENT VALID VA license be sufficient to purchase a firearm?

    Thanks so much, I figured with the wealth of knowledge here this would be the place to ask.
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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HearseGuy View Post
    I have a question about purchasing a firearm from a dealer. Specifically a gun show. My buddy is looking to purchase a firearm tomorrow. He will be OCing with it.

    My question is the secondary form of ID. The VSP site says a passport is an acceptable secondary ID. It then says the second ID must have the same address listed as the primary ID (in his case his valid VA drivers license)

    Only a passport doesn't have an address? His don't, mine don't and every sample I've seen online doesn't. So will his CURRENT passport and CURRENT VALID VA license be sufficient to purchase a firearm?

    Thanks so much, I figured with the wealth of knowledge here this would be the place to ask.
    I've wondered about this too. No US passports have an address listed as part of the official data. They last 10 years, it would be pointless. There is a place where you are supposed to write your current address in pencil. I wonder if that would work? Sort of stupid if it does...

    TFred

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    Regular Member HearseGuy's Avatar
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    Secondary Identification

    The secondary form of identification, for Virginia residents and residents of other states, must show an address identical to that shown on the primary form of identification. Some acceptable forms of secondary ID are:

    a current lease,
    evidence of currently paid personal property tax or real estate tax,
    a current utility or telephone bill,
    a current voter registration card,
    a current bank check,
    a current passport,
    a current automobile registration and
    current hunting or fishing license.

    http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_VFTP.shtm

    Virginia State Police clearly states a passport is good for second ID. But also the second ID must show address. But there's no address on a passport.

    I didn't see a spot to write in an address have to look again. But I would hate to get over there, him pay to get in, and not be able to buy anything
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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HearseGuy View Post
    ....I would hate to get over there, him pay to get in, and not be able to buy anything
    so have him take an alternate secondary ID. Personally, with the rfid chip in the passport I'd be inclined to leave that at home because you just never know who might be tracking you if you don't have it shielded

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    If you and/or your buddy want to have some extra fun at the gun show, go around and ask this question to several different LEOs, including troopers. They shouldn't be hard to find at a gun show. I'll bet that you could get a half dozen different answers. Obviously I wouldn't trust a word of any answer about law from a cop, but it would be fun just to see what kinds of responses they come up with. Heck, ask a couple different dealers. I'll bet that you can even get different answers from them, too.

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    Regular Member HearseGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VApatriot View Post
    If you and/or your buddy want to have some extra fun at the gun show, go around and ask this question to several different LEOs, including troopers. They shouldn't be hard to find at a gun show. I'll bet that you could get a half dozen different answers. Obviously I wouldn't trust a word of any answer about law from a cop, but it would be fun just to see what kinds of responses they come up with. Heck, ask a couple different dealers. I'll bet that you can even get different answers from them, too.
    You were right it was fun!

    I asked the state trooper at the table checking weapons and he said he was not sure but would find out. And he actually did and was a really cool, nice guy. He said that the passport part being acceptable was written in 1989. Apparently older passports had an address on them. A passport is NOT an acceptable form of secondary ID because it does not have an address on it identical to the address on the primary form of ID.

    Just an FYI for anyone who may care. All dealers (that i asked anyway) were also aware that a passport was not an acceptable secondary ID due to the lack of an address. Not a concern to me as I buy privately.
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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HearseGuy View Post
    You were right it was fun!

    I asked the state trooper at the table checking weapons and he said he was not sure but would find out. And he actually did and was a really cool, nice guy. He said that the passport part being acceptable was written in 1989. Apparently older passports had an address on them. A passport is NOT an acceptable form of secondary ID because it does not have an address on it identical to the address on the primary form of ID.

    Just an FYI for anyone who may care. All dealers (that i asked anyway) were also aware that a passport was not an acceptable secondary ID due to the lack of an address. Not a concern to me as I buy privately.

    I'm not surprised a dealer would know the correct answer. His livelihood depends on it.

  8. #8
    Regular Member HearseGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tess View Post
    I'm not surprised a dealer would know the correct answer. His livelihood depends on it.
    Absolutely.

    Norfolk gun show was great. I liked it better than the SGK. It was smaller but I could actually look at stuff. Hampton was packed like sardines. My buddy got a great deal on a Gen 3 Glock 17 with 3 mags and night sights.

    9mm ammo was still stupid. People were asking 30-38 dollars for 50 rounds of federal ball ammo! 50-55 for 100 round win white boxes. Stupid. Tulammo was 22 dollars for 50 rounds. Handguns seemed to be at sane levels. Semi auto rifles are coming down to almost normal prices too.
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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HearseGuy View Post
    Absolutely.

    Norfolk gun show was great. I liked it better than the SGK. It was smaller but I could actually look at stuff. Hampton was packed like sardines. My buddy got a great deal on a Gen 3 Glock 17 with 3 mags and night sights.

    9mm ammo was still stupid. People were asking 30-38 dollars for 50 rounds of federal ball ammo! 50-55 for 100 round win white boxes. Stupid. Tulammo was 22 dollars for 50 rounds. Handguns seemed to be at sane levels. Semi auto rifles are coming down to almost normal prices too.
    On the subject of stupid prices, I received an email a little over 24 hours ago from one online ammo selling company who were asking $100 for a 50 round box of .45 AUTO 230 gr FMJ

    and that's BEFORE adding shipping costs which for one box they're quoting at $13.34
    Last edited by scouser; 04-06-2013 at 10:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    On the subject of stupid prices, I received an email a little over 24 hours ago from one online ammo selling company who were asking $100 for a 50 round box of .45 AUTO 230 gr FMJ

    and that's BEFORE adding shipping costs which for one box they're quoting at $13.34

    Check with Cheaper than Dirt as I just saw them with both range and defensive for a lot less than that.

    Added: Wow, checked Georgia Arms as well and see that they indicate a 2-9 months delay for any ammo (they say that ALL ammo is out of stock due to problems getting components?).
    Last edited by Glockster; 04-07-2013 at 07:32 AM.

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    back to the original topic - this is the first I've heard of a requirement that an address be stated on more than one piece of ID. That may be what they'd like, but I don't think there's any legal basis for it (though I'd have to do some research to be sure). What is clear to me is that you have to have evidence of two separate facts: 1) that you are who you say you are (and a passport is good for that); and (2) that you are a resident of the state you claim to be a resident of (OL, fishing licence, lease, etc. showing place of actual residence). Those two facts do not have to be established by every piece of ID. The statute does require that any address stated on both must be identical. But it doesn't say that any address has to be stated on both, and the fact that a U.S. passport is an approved form would negate that assumption. By the way, the statute specifically lists passport, and the VSP doesn't have the authority to say a passport is not acceptable - doesn't matter what a passport was in 1989 or when the statute was enacted, Virginia law says a passport is acceptable. The Va. Sup. Ct. is fond of saying that the legislature is presumed to know what's in the code and if they wanted it to say something new and different, they've got the power to change it. The fact that they haven't amended the statute creates a presumption that the Commonwealth likes the law the way it is.
    Last edited by user; 04-07-2013 at 08:32 AM.
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    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Actual Law on IDs

    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    back to the original topic - this is the first I've heard of a requirement that an address be stated on more than one piece of ID. That may be what they'd like, but I don't think there's any legal basis for it (though I'd have to do some research to be sure). What is clear to me is that you have to have evidence of two separate facts: 1) that you are who you say you are (and a passport is good for that); and (2) that you are a resident of the state you claim to be a resident of (OL, fishing licence, lease, etc. showing place of actual residence). Those two facts do not have to be established by every piece of ID. The statute does require that any address stated on both must be identical. But it doesn't say that any address has to be stated on both, and the fact that a U.S. passport is an approved form would negate that assumption. By the way, the statute specifically lists passport, and the VSP doesn't have the authority to say a passport is not acceptable - doesn't matter what a passport was in 1989 or when the statute was enacted, Virginia law says a passport is acceptable. The Va. Sup. Ct. is fond of saying that the legislature is presumed to know what's in the code and if they wanted it to say something new and different, they've got the power to change it. The fact that they haven't amended the statute creates a presumption that the Commonwealth likes the law the way it is.
    From my research there is no basis for such a denial or an insistence on both IDs having the same address.
    This topic has come up a lot and is always going to be a problem as there are a lot of dealers who have never actually read the law.
    The ATF requirements are easily met:
    On form 4473 question 20B allows for alternate documentation; instructions say a “combination of government issued documents can be used” if the photo ID does not reflect the current address. http://149.101.29.141/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

    The Virginia State Police requirements are a little bit harder to follow as they reflect the statute and require a cross reference to the ATF ruling.

    18.2-308.2:2. part B section G states: g) hunting or fishing license; other current
    identification allowed as evidence of residency by Part 178.124 of Title 27 of the Code of
    Federal Regulations and ATF Ruling 2001-5;
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...d+18.2-308.2C2

    ATF Ruling 2001-5 states:
    It is ATF's position
    that a combination of documents may be used to satisfy the Brady Act's requirement
    for an identification document. The prospective transferee must present at least
    one valid document that meets the statutory definition of an identification
    document; i.e., it must bear the transferee's name and photograph, it must have
    been issued by a governmental entity, and it must be of a type intended or commonly
    accepted for identification purposes. ATF recognizes, however, that some valid
    government-issued identification documents do not include the bearer's current
    residence address. Such an identification document may be supplemented with
    another valid government-issued document that contains the necessary information.
    Thus, for example, a licensee may accept a valid driver's license that accurately reflects the purchaser's name, date of birth, and photograph, along with a vehicle registration issued
    by the State indicating the transferee's current address. Licensees should note
    that if the law of the State that issued the driver's license provides that
    the driver's license is invalid due to any reason (i.e., the license
    is expired or is no longer valid due to an unreported change of address), then
    the driver's license may not be used for identification purposes under the Brady
    Act. If a licensee has reasonable cause to question the validity of an identification
    document, he or she should not proceed with the transfer until those questions
    can be resolved.

    http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulin...ng-2001-5.html


    So legally you are fine having a mailing address on your license and using other documents to verify address. I have used my driver’s license (with a mailing address) along with my CHP and a lease to purchase at a gun show before. The problem is that some dealers have never bothered to read the actual ATF instructions or perhaps they are too complicated for them to understand. So you might run into a dealer who will refuse to sell you a weapon. You can bring the ATF ruling 2001-5 highlighted, and a copy of the form 4473 instructions also highlighted and argue why they are in error; or you can just go to another dealer who has taken the time to learn the law.
    Last edited by Mongoose72; 04-07-2013 at 09:08 AM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member HearseGuy's Avatar
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    Good info thanks guys.

    My buddy used his licence and his truck registration. The whole transaction and back ground check took about 15 mins it was great.
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