Latest man to die by Taser in Los Angeles

marshaul · Apr 7, 2013

Beretta92FSLady said:
There are 364 days in a year, which means there are at least 364 tasered civilians. Let me think about this, would I rather an LEO tase a person or shoot the person? Apparently, force has been deemed necessary--we aren't talking about excessive, yet.

False dilemma. You're relying on the premise that whether police "deem" force to be "necessary" is unaffected by availability and acceptable use criteria of various forms of force.

This premise is self-evidently false. Anyone can see that police are encouraged to use force where otherwise they would not by the presence and lax acceptable use criteria of tasers.

Beretta92FSLady · Apr 7, 2013

marshaul said:
False dilemma. You're relying on the premise that whether police "deem" force to be "necessary" is unaffected by availability and acceptable use criteria of various forms of force.

This premise is self-evidently false. Anyone can see that police are encouraged to use force where otherwise they would not by the presence and lax acceptable use criteria of tasers.

I did jump the gun a bit...sorry about that.

No, it's not self-evidently false.

Police are being encouraged to use force outside of policy outlining force? Please, link us up to an example of that.

Beretta92FSLady · Apr 7, 2013

1245A Defender said:
I like that. I have A trust in you.. It is a little thing, it talks to a spot my back.
I will take your back,,,, please,,, take my back too,, when that time comes..
I know youre MAN enough!!

I know you are more than sure to defend your wife and kids in the world than the talkers on this forum.
And for that , I have the upmost respect... Hope to meet you, In the Real, someday..

You will meet me, some day...it's a small enough world.

I got your back, the second French storm our beaches, their croissant eating, tea drinking asses are going down!

marshaul · Apr 7, 2013

Beretta92FSLady said:
Police are being encouraged to use force outside of policy outlining force? Please, link us up to an example of that.

Police Use Taser on Harmless Deaf woman after she called them for help

It's a simple concept, and I know you're not really as confused as you're pretending to be. Nice try though.

I'll spell it out anyway: if police are given a new toy, with acceptable use policies far laxer than those applied to their other toys, they will use that toy when otherwise they might have had to just "sit on their hands" (so to speak).

Citizen · Apr 7, 2013

marshaul said:
Police Use Taser on Harmless Deaf woman after she called them for help

It's a simple concept, and I know you're not really as confused as you're pretending to be. Nice try though.

I'll spell it out anyway: if police are given a new toy, with acceptable use policies far laxer than those applied to their other toys, they will use that toy when otherwise they might have had to just "sit on their hands" (so to speak).

I'm still trying to figure out who authorized police to use these things. Government only has the authority its been granted--they can't write themselves authority to use these things. Same for drones.

Beretta92FSLady · Apr 7, 2013

marshaul said:
Police Use Taser on Harmless Deaf woman after she called them for help

It's a simple concept, and I know you're not really as confused as you're pretending to be. Nice try though.

I'll spell it out anyway: if police are given a new toy, with acceptable use policies far laxer than those applied to their other toys, they will use that toy when otherwise they might have had to just "sit on their hands" (so to speak).

I didn't hit the link, but I remember this happening in Washington State.

First, a taser is not a toy.

Second, I don't know, are their policies laxer regarding tasers, as opposed to sidearms? Think about it, using a taser, is not the same degree of force as using a firearm.--of course, people die from being tased...people die from being handcuffed behind their back.

Citizen, the second you cast your vote, and pay taxes, you legitimize this System, and the Authority to Power. If you don't like current police policy, vote for the political dirtbag that will work to your preferred end.

Citizen · Apr 7, 2013

It occurs to me that discussion of tasers in the context of lethal force omits all the people with brain injuries, busted teeth, and what-have-you from bouncing their head off curbs, sidewalks, and pavement.

At least with batons, a strike above the shoulders was clearly lethal force. But, using the curb, sidewalk, or street to hit someone in the head when they fall rigid from a taser somehow does not count as lethal force. Even though its entirely predictable. Go watch some of those youtube videos of police being tased for training--they stand on gym mats. Lets get some realism here--lemme see them do the same training on concrete or right next to a curb with nobody to catch them as they fall. We'll find out real quick whether departments count tasers as lethal force or capable of grave bodily injury.

A real quick way to get police to abandon those things would be to require that the only police who can carry tasers are those who bounced their own head or teeth during the realistic training I described above. Take away the mats and spotters, and watch how many police trainees refuse to be tased for training.

Beretta92FSLady · Apr 7, 2013

Citizen said:
It occurs to me that discussion of tasers in the context of lethal force omits all the people with brain injuries, busted teeth, and what-have-you from bouncing their head off curbs, sidewalks, and pavement.

It does. I can't seem to find any stats on individuals injured by tasers.

At least with batons, a strike above the shoulders was clearly lethal force. But, using the curb, sidewalk, or street to hit someone in the head when they fall rigid from a taser somehow does not count as lethal force. Even though its entirely predictable. Go watch some of those youtube videos of police being tased for training--they stand on gym mats. Lets get some realism here--lemme see them do the same training on concrete or right next to a curb with nobody to catch them as they fall.

It's not predictable that an individual is going to fall face first into a fire hydrant, it's possible, there's a difference.

I never understood why they have police be pepper sprayed, and tased, but they don't have to be shot, or clubbed.

Citizen · Apr 7, 2013

Beretta92FSLady said:
It does. I can't seem to find any stats on individuals injured by tasers.

It's not predictable that an individual is going to fall face first into a fire hydrant, it's possible, there's a difference.

I never understood why they have police be pepper sprayed, and tased, but they don't have to be shot, or clubbed.

Go hunt up the youtube videos. Lots of people go rigid and fall straight back or front, pivoting on their feet, staying straight as a log. There doesn't have to be a fire-hydrant in the way. The sidewalk or street is all it takes.

Beretta92FSLady · Apr 7, 2013

Citizen said:
Go hunt up the youtube videos. Lots of people go rigid and fall straight back or front, pivoting on their feet, staying straight as a log. There doesn't have to be a fire-hydrant in the way. The sidewalk or street is all it takes.

I agree, if you are standing in the street, there's nearly a 99% chance, when tased, you are going to hit the ground.--the other 1% of the time, your a real bad ass. :shocker:

marshaul · Apr 7, 2013

Beretta92FSLady said:
I didn't hit the link, but I remember this happening in Washington State.

First, a taser is not a toy.

Second, I don't know, are their policies laxer regarding tasers, as opposed to sidearms? Think about it, using a taser, is not the same degree of force as using a firearm.--of course, people die from being tased...people die from being handcuffed behind their back.

I'm sure, absent a taser, those cops would have concluded their community would find it reasonable to club her and handcuff her to death instead.

As for being a toy... you're right, they probably wouldn't bring them on a chubby-inducing, better-than-sex home invasion. I guess that means only their shotguns and AR15s qualify as toys. Which makes sense, because they (the guns) certainly don't qualify as tools, as they don't ever use them for any valid, non-entertainment purpose.

Beretta92FSLady · Apr 7, 2013

marshaul said:
I'm sure, absent a taser, those cops would have concluded their community would find it reasonable to club her and handcuff her to death instead.

As for being a toy... you're right, they probably wouldn't bring them on a chubby-inducing, better-than-sex home invasion. I guess that means only their shotguns and AR15s qualify as toys. Which makes sense, because they (the guns) certainly don't qualify as tools, as they don't ever use them for any valid, non-entertainment purpose.

I've been pointing this out for years, and it's the same issue that came up with the deaf woman: LEO's are not trained to interact with black males, and handicap individuals, such as: Deaf people.

Ca Patriot · Apr 8, 2013

Beretta92FSLady said:
LEO's are not trained to interact with black males

lol

sudden valley gunner · Apr 8, 2013

Citizen said:
I'm still trying to figure out who authorized police to use these things. Government only has the authority its been granted--they can't write themselves authority to use these things. Same for drones.

+1

OC for ME · Apr 8, 2013

Lethal force does not mean you get dead, it means that you could get dead. Tasers are lethal force cuz you could get dead.

sudden valley gunner · Apr 8, 2013

OC for ME said:
Lethal force does not mean you get dead, it means that you could get dead. Tasers are lethal force cuz you could get dead.

+1 Well said.

Beretta92FSLady · Apr 8, 2013

OC for ME said:
Lethal force does not mean you get dead, it means that you could get dead. Tasers are lethal force cuz you could get dead.

There's no way you buy the line of reasoning you offered.

Citizen · Apr 8, 2013

OC for ME said:
Lethal force does not mean you get dead, it means that you could get dead. Tasers are lethal force cuz you could get dead.

Good point.

Grave bodily injury or death.

While death from the electrical energy seems rare, it is known to occur. Given the possibility of death just from the electrical energy, what on earth justifies the electro-torture pain compliance usage of these things?

But, death from electrical energy aside, there are lots of serious bodily injuries from people falling and striking their head on pavement and concrete.

No doubt, these things add up to the legal definition of lethal force--that level of force which is known or should be known to cause or have the potential for grave bodily injury or death. (Mixture of USMC guard training and Mas Ayoob).

ADobbs1989 · Apr 8, 2013

Citizen said:
Good point.

Grave bodily injury or death.

While death from the electrical energy seems rare, it is known to occur. Given the possibility of death just from the electrical energy, what on earth justifies the electro-torture pain compliance usage of these things?

But, death from electrical energy aside, there are lots of serious bodily injuries from people falling and striking their head on pavement and concrete.

No doubt, these things add up to the legal definition of lethal force--that level of force which is known or should be known to cause or have the potential for grave bodily injury or death. (Mixture of USMC guard training and Mas Ayoob).

Don't think any reasonable person could disagree with this. Precisely the reason there should be an unanimous level of standard that tasers should not be used unless the situation would call for lethal force. Not as a tool to force compliance from a non violent suspect, and especially not to stop people from exercising their rights.

IWLAFART · Apr 8, 2013

Scared

Being elderly, 75years old with a defibrillator I am worried if I get a nervous LE. I though I live in WV we are not required to inform the LE when carrying I will tell them first thing. LE in our area are very quick to use a tazer.

Latest man to die by Taser in Los Angeles

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